Jake Burghardt [0:00:00]: The golden rule and all these sorts of efforts is that researchers need to get a lot more out of it than they put into it in order to do it.

Jake Burghardt [0:00:06]: By adding a report, it's a small step where you can see other people using your research, other researchers pulling it into their insights over the long term.

Jake Burghardt [0:00:14]: It's a one stop shop for a single insight with a great title.

Jake Burghardt [0:00:20]: Its own Url and supporting evidence, and you can get really fancy from there and create an insight summary hub and all those sorts of things, but Just start with?

Jake Burghardt [0:00:29]: It's just saying, what are the top insights that aren't moving the needle?

Erin May [0:00:36]: Hey.

Erin May0:00:36]: This is Erin May,

Carol Guest [0:00:37]: and this is Carol Guest.

Erin May [0:00:39]: And this is Awkward Silences.

Erin May [0:00:42]: Awkward Silences this is brought to you by User Interviews.

Erin May [0:00:46]: The fastest way to recruit targeted high quality participants for any kind of research.

Ben Wiedmaier [ [0:00:56]: Hey, it's Ben.

Ben Wiedmaier [ [0:00:57]: Welcome to Awkward Silences.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:00:58]: This week, we have a conversation with Jake Burghardt, who is out with a new book called Stop Wasting Research, Maximize the Product Impact of your Organization's Customer Insights.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:08]: The conversation spans a whole host of topics all again focused on this idea of wasting research and how we can stop it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:15]: It's a really good conversation for anyone who has felt a bit isolated in their organization.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:20]: Jake talks about ways of breaking down silos.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:22]: He also has a really really wonderful framework for creating bread breadcrumbs from your report or what he thinks you ought to be creating, which is sort of an insights summary statement, how you can loop in your partners and stakeholders in the creation of that process, and how using insights statements that link back to reports that link back to your information, your your your method, your your sample, all all the things that, you know, that we as researchers like to learn about how those practices can really help create an insights library or a research repository.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:55]: I do, of course, a bunch of Lean talking, but I think you're really gonna benefit from Jake's conversation and his thoughts around wasting research, whether you're an Ic practitioner or trying to make more impact with your work or you're a a leader of a team trying to make inroads up and out with your team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:11]: So here is Jake Burghardt on Awkward Silences.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:14]: Enjoy.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:14]: Jake Burghardt welcome to Awkward Silences.

Jake Burghardt [0:02:23]: Hey.

Jake Burghardt [0:02:23]: Thank you so much.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:25]: I'm very, very excited to be talking with you, and I'm gonna do my very best to let you talk more than I am going to talk.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:31]: Jake, we have you on because you're out with a new book called stop wasting research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:38]: And the subtitle reads maximize the product impact of your organization's customer insights.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:44]: And, yeah, There's the title.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:45]: I love it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:46]: I love thinking about.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:47]: I'd maybe a conversation for another day.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:49]: How the cover art came about, but it's got this wonderful inverted triangle, which is in a solid hue and it, you know, it disperse down.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:57]: Yet.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:57]: To all these wonderful.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:58]: I don't know if those are insights, streams or if those are actionable moments, but we are here to talk about research waste, what it is where it comes from who should care about it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:10]: Mh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:10]: And then I wanna spend the majority of our time because many of the folks listening here are themselves, researchers or managing researchers, How they can actually stop wasting their research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:19]: So Let's...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:20]: If we can Wanna do a little bit of background,

Jake Burghardt [0:03:23]: of course.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:23]: Why did you wanna write a book about wasting research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:26]: Was there a moment?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:27]: And you were like oh my gosh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:28]: I...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:28]: I have so much to say about this?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:30]: Was it an accumulation of things throughout your experience, Take us back pre book.

Jake Burghardt [0:03:35]: It was more an accumulation of things.

Jake Burghardt [0:03:37]: You know, there wasn't one particular moment.

Jake Burghardt [0:03:39]: I got started at dot com as a Ux researcher.

Jake Burghardt [0:03:42]: I've always been a generalist and worked across a variety of roles.

Jake Burghardt [0:03:46]: As a consultant for many years, I got tired of throwing things over the wall.

Jake Burghardt [0:03:50]: So I decided I wanted to go in house and spend some time getting more value out of existing research and, you know, at Amazon as a principal Ux researcher and you know, principal product manager for insights products.

Jake Burghardt [0:04:02]: So it ended up becoming this specialty, but just to speak more generally, like, across my career.

Jake Burghardt [0:04:08]: I've always had this emphasis on getting more juice out of existing learning about problem finding before problem solving and showing up at client sites and finding all sorts of things that were underutilized in the consulting days, and then, you know, in house at big tech, you know, at Microsoft and Amazon finding lots of underutilized work having the opportunity to look through literally hundreds of studies and some instances in different organizations.

Jake Burghardt [0:04:33]: Across all of it, there was all of this kind of conversation, emerging in the industry about research repo and knowledge management, and using knowledge management frameworks and the amazing things that that community is done over a long period of time.

Jake Burghardt [0:04:47]: But I felt like there's was just some missing ingredients in all of it, and the industry kind of pushing tools as a focus and then folks, you know, the most common questions about research repository stories being?

Jake Burghardt [0:05:00]: What tool do you use?

Jake Burghardt [0:05:01]: And then, Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:05:02]: You know, why is it failing?

Jake Burghardt [0:05:03]: Right?

Jake Burghardt [0:05:04]: So there's a huge amount of activation work and change management to these efforts.

Jake Burghardt [0:05:10]: And I saw a niche area we...

Jake Burghardt [0:05:13]: There's so much in the industry about optimizing research process up through the end of the study and reporting out.

Jake Burghardt [0:05:20]: But, you know, the follow through of that, in all sorts of forms whether it's you know, the depths of research repo or just more activation strategies for accumulated research.

Jake Burghardt [0:05:30]: I just didn't see, anything there.

Jake Burghardt [0:05:32]: So in sort of a Covid d tour, I I put out some medium articles.

Jake Burghardt [0:05:35]: I got some great responses to it.

Jake Burghardt [0:05:37]: And that led me to work with Rose feldman and it's it's a lot of fun to stew on a topic over a period of time and really learn from what's going on in the industry from research ops and product ops and design ops, all these emerging disciplines and put together something that I hope people find really useful.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:56]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:56]: And we'll link certainly to the book, in the the show notes and I I love that you mentioned it and I'm happy you mentioned.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:01]: The tools over sort of technique and tactics.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:04]: I think anything too often as someone who works on the research vendor side, you know, we're constantly combating the marketing around an all in one, a tool that can do it all, and I think for time strapped practitioners.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:16]: It sounds all is say, like, oh, well, I if I just build a repository or maybe it's called an insights hub or maybe it's called of, well, library, which...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:25]: Let me say those things are valuable.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:27]: Those are things are important to do.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:28]: You've got a crib from Kate Ta Shout to kate who is one who talks about in advances, the importance of those things, but it...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:35]: I think it can sometimes, we lean too much into the tool as the solution.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:39]: So I'm really looking forward to over the course of this conversation looking at the tactics, that make a repository useful, but I do think it's important to to mention that, you know, we're...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:06:49]: We've been hearing this for a long time that researchers are sort of crossing their fingers after the deliverable or the report is shared or the workshop concludes because they are often as you probably experienced in your time Mh as a practitioner onto the next, you know, or or fire or stakeholder need, and that activation I'm using air quotes for our listeners that activation is so important.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:07:10]: So Before we get to that last little bit wherein we talk about how we can make things stickier and have longer tails and all the things stop wasting the research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:07:19]: Can you su describe what is research waste and how we know when research is being wasted

Jake Burghardt [0:07:27]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:07:27]: Thank you for asking.

Jake Burghardt [0:07:29]: I spent a lot of time on the definitions in the book.

Jake Burghardt [0:07:31]: So, you know, chapter one kinda digs into some basics.

Jake Burghardt [0:07:34]: I I take a big definition of customer research because you have to start at the top there.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:07:38]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:07:39]: Broad umbrella that covers sort of all of the sources that decision makers are receiving today from, you know, market research, data science, Ux research, Cx and analysts on on from there.

Jake Burghardt [0:07:51]: You know, I've got a...

Jake Burghardt [0:07:52]: The common denominator is drawing a box around what we're gonna pick up by saying it's using a great research process that focus on this odd listeners would recognize.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:01]: So it starts with the definition of research.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:05]: And then from there, you know, research waste is all of those insights, those valuable things that were left behind in research process.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:15]: So, you know, you don't write a book called stop wasting research, unless you care a lot about research and you're excited about the value that it already provides.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:23]: So Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:23]: Let me start by saying, researchers in industry are already doing amazing things that are advancing careers and products.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:29]: And at the end of their optimized study process, they're getting great wins, but there's a remainder.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:08:35]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:36]: And that remainder, there's a bunch of reasons why that I call out in the book, but they don't land in next steps.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:42]: And whatever those next steps might be in your organization and the teams are trying to influence the plan, you know, like, specifications, backlog, road roadmap, various types of planning deliverables there where you can see proof that that insight is gonna make a difference.

Jake Burghardt [0:08:57]: And so they're left on sort of this cutting room floor, and that is leaving behind new sources of value for an organization that could apply To what they're thinking of next.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:08]: It's not old research.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:09]: Some of it is obviously out of date.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:11]: We can look at it and say that's no longer relevant, but we don't have to just put an expiration date on this content.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:17]: We can find things that are years old at are still very relevant Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:21]: To tomorrow's conversation.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:22]: So it's about that remainder, and what can we do to pick it up because it can be a lot more value from existing research.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:29]: And the quote, just to close it out is one of the things not a quote, but a a bit that really resonated with reviewers of the book was what would competitors pay to know the research learning that you've left behind?

Jake Burghardt [0:09:45]: Wow.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:45]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:46]: It speaks to...

Jake Burghardt [0:09:47]: This is valuable business assets, and it can apply to all the things that leaders care about for what's next.

Jake Burghardt [0:09:54]: It's not just old news.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:09:56]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:09:56]: I think that's...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:09:57]: I'm so glad you mentioned that business element because I've been working with lots of folks in the community, and this is an evergreen topic, but it seems that post Covid and our return to the the current normal.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:10]: There's been lots of budget os and head count changes and r and you know, now we have Ai, which lots of managers, maybe not all are thinking how might this affect my team, How is this gonna to affect my head count.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:24]: And so there are...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:25]: The wider conversation is, okay, researchers.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:27]: We have...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:28]: Certainly we wanna grow in our practice.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:29]: We wanna continue sharpening our skills.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:31]: And there's this recognition that we are part of a business.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:35]: And so we need, you know, hear topics like Roi and Getting business Savvy, and I'm seeing researchers ask whether or not they should, you know, get a management course.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:43]: And so I think research waste is a really nice framework.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:46]: A great lens too if you're not someone who wants to go out and get an Mba because it might not fit with your your career trajectory.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:52]: I think it's a really nice framework who doesn't love a framework of thinking about the Roi, the investment of research because who...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:59]: You don't want the hard labor of a team any team certainly a research team that's extending time to identify a project opportunity, recruit participants engage with those participants, aside learning.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:10]: There's waste and I don't wanna be overly efficient, but at I like that thinking about what are you missing?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:16]: I'll I'll end by saying, a, a research leader I spoke with earlier in the year.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:20]: I was asking her.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:21]: She works on a big international team and she says at the end of each year, I present to all the leaders of the different team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:26]: Here are all the great things we did.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:27]: Mh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:27]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:28]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:28]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:28]: Ra ra.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:28]: And she said she always makes sure to say here's what we didn't get to.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:32]: Amazing.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:33]: Here's what you're either my bandwidth constraints or the fact that my head count changed or are shifting priorities.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:40]: Here's what we...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:41]: You told me we wanted to learn, but we didn't learn.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:44]: And so I think leaving things on the cutting room floor and having that frame of a, a a loss frame is something that could be convincing to stakeholders.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:51]: When you have are talking to and we're interviewing research leaders.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:11:55]: Did they find that this frame of of waste or lost opportunity was a way to meeting make for their stakeholders who might not be researchers themselves?

Jake Burghardt [0:12:05]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:05]: It has this activating emotion to it is why into it.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:08]: You know?

Jake Burghardt [0:12:09]: Really, what we're talking about is underutilized or unused valuable research, you know, not all research fits that bucket.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:17]: We're not talking about a hundred percent utilization.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:19]: Sure.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:20]: But it does have sort of an activating feel to it that speaks to the fact that it's something that we can pick up, you know, and there are root causes for it that are el date in the book become the structure of the book.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:31]: You know, there's reasons why research doesn't make the cut and we can think about it more systemically.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:36]: I can get into those.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:37]: But I I think that the framing for researchers, it really resonates and for, their stakeholders and decision makers, what resonates most is directly applicable valuable to what they care about, just like in research study.

Jake Burghardt [0:12:51]: So if you're, you know, the standard model of research is so much about driving alignment with stakeholders, really understanding needs things coming down the pipe and aligning to them, you know, is a common model of research there are obviously other models, but the one that folks talk about a lot.

Jake Burghardt [0:13:07]: Like, when you think about existing research is similar where you are trying to take present c, present unknowns, uncertainties, assumptions and align that work, and some early examples and case studies of that where old research becomes valuable again is the the fastest way to to get stakeholders interested.

Jake Burghardt [0:13:28]: And such just needed is sort of a an internal product that they might want to use.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:34]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:34]: And when we discuss some of the My word is remedy, because I I imagine it's an ongoing conversation.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:39]: It's not a toggle.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:40]: You're not gonna just reduce it overnight.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:42]: Absolutely.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:43]: But before we get to that, and I and I love your frame because it both stakeholders, partners as well as the researcher.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:49]: So I think at them on the top Jake, I love your book because it it takes a holistic view of the organization.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:54]: And that...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:54]: That's whether you're working in house, whether you're as a consultant or an agency partnering with multiple signs of kinds of clients or whether you're, a freelancer someone who's engaging as a a solo shop.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:05]: These...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:05]: The techniques that Jake el in the book, I love that term, Jake.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:09]: Love when we get to use El date on on the pie.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:11]: But before we get into those, and the great back and forth that you have between practitioner researcher and the stakeholder.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:16]: Quickly because you have a whole great chapter on this.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:19]: How can we...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:20]: We've talked a little bit about what it is.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:21]: What can people listening do or steps they might take to start identifying which You, you know, they they probably have a lingering sense that, like, they missed that slide or that that thing I told them to do?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:35]: I'm not seeing that in the product road roadmap.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:37]: Are are there are there things that you have found that consistently help teams identify research ways to get a sense of how big or the scale of the problem or the the opportunity to to reduce it?

Jake Burghardt [0:14:48]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:14:48]: I mean, absolutely.

Jake Burghardt [0:14:49]: I I talked about a couple of different sort of early ways.

Jake Burghardt [0:14:52]: And I think it becomes a apparent through action once you've kinda motivated doing something about it.

Jake Burghardt [0:14:59]: That's the best way to really understand the value that's of what's being left behind.

Jake Burghardt [0:15:02]: But in sort of the early taking stock days, you know, some organizations, as you mentioned, I I do in talks for folks that have bought a stack of books and they immediately they've recognized the problem.

Jake Burghardt [0:15:13]: They already bought in.

Jake Burghardt [0:15:14]: Right?

Jake Burghardt [0:15:15]: You know?

Jake Burghardt [0:15:15]: But other organizations, need a case study or something that shows because even some researchers really believe that their older stuff isn't as valuable.

Jake Burghardt [0:15:23]: So Mh, you know, an early step for a lot of folks is taking some of those studies that have been the most impactful that everybody talks about, you know, every organization has a few things that they hold up Have you seen this one or when someone joins they, they send that one, you know?

Jake Burghardt [0:15:38]: And take a few of those ideally from different disciplines, different silos, teams, you, even within the same discipline and really go back with the highlighter and understand what's been in influence product and start to tell a story about it as a case study, you know, that's one way to kind of, especially on the research side on the inside generating side to kind of motivate a wait, You know, There's a lot here that could be applicable and if there's projects in flight that they can apply to by all means like get them in there and try and develop case studies.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:07]: I think that those are sort of the early moves to kinda get people interested in the idea.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:11]: And then, you know, chapter two is you mentioned there's a whole chapter on kinda taking stock.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:15]: And it's about getting folks together and, you know, whether it's a shared canvas or whatever method Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:21]: And taking stock of their...

Jake Burghardt [0:16:23]: Where their research lives, you know, Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:26]: The research storage locations.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:27]: And and they make everything from...

Jake Burghardt [0:16:29]: Folder and a drive for a particular study all the way through to communications hubs, you know, in channels end up being places where a lot of stuff is stored, you know, in fast moving environments.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:40]: And, you know, looking across different streams of research and understanding where it lives.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:45]: And separating out the place where really the outputs are, because, you know, I could've have written a different book called stop wasting research evidence, you know, but this is about stop wasting...

Jake Burghardt [0:16:54]: And maximizing the value of customer insights.

Jake Burghardt [0:16:57]: So I say, let's pull out the outputs of these different kinds of learning.

Jake Burghardt [0:17:01]: And then think about on the other side that divide, what are the planning does the recurring planning decisions, moments, rituals, deliverables that you wanna influence and map the wins that have come through?

Jake Burghardt [0:17:14]: What are things that we could double down on and, you know, as a community continue to grow?

Jake Burghardt [0:17:18]: Or and then also, what what what been the losses?

Jake Burghardt [0:17:22]: You know, What of the stories of things that didn't make it across.

Jake Burghardt [0:17:24]: So It's not a formal insight by insight analysis.

Jake Burghardt [0:17:28]: It's really about finding more types of reasons, and starting to think about how can we work backwards?

Jake Burghardt [0:17:33]: What experiments could we run that if they were successful, we would turn them into operations to get more value out of this.

Jake Burghardt [0:17:39]: So a lot of different ways to take stock.

Jake Burghardt [0:17:42]: Those are a couple that are in the book.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:17:44]: I really, I I appreciate that that example.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:17:46]: And and long time listeners and certainly anyone who's worked in user experience researchers towards, leading a team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:17:51]: That what Jake just described should be an annual for you or maybe a quarterly thing for you depending on your output.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:17:57]: You know, I I hear from a lot of practitioners and certainly, research leaders that that in visibility of how their stake...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:05]: Where do their stakeholders go?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:06]: When they have a question.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:08]: Maybe they're they're coached and they have that that habit of going to a repository and saying have we done something on this before?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:15]: You need to know that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:16]: Do you have a channel that they go to?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:17]: Do you know how often they check it?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:19]: These sorts of pre search sorts of questions that Jake is outlining are so value for valuable for for you as a team, not just as we'll get to for stopping your research waste but now you know where and when and how to do kickoff offs.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:33]: Roughly, Or at least you have a better sense.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:35]: Now you know how you can get in front of your stakeholders Or, you know, that sort of mapping the organization.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:40]: I've heard so much about that from folks thinking about their effectiveness and their impact because take those research skills.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:46]: We hear this a lot like, build good stakeholder, risk relationships and do so treat them, like, you know, your own customers or your users with whom you're doing research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:53]: Think of your organization in that way too.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:55]: You are a note.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:56]: And so, Jake, again, I really love that you take this organizational look to stopping research waste.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:03]: And so let's transition then to I love the way you've organized the book because it's not like, here are the fifty solutions.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:09]: You've got these...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:10]: You have root causes That you you say are propelling ways, but they are also depending on the cause that most resonates with a team or an organization.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:19]: You've got solutions baked in.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:21]: And so your root causes are three.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:23]: They are preparation, motivation, and integration.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:27]: So we've got enough time to go through each.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:29]: Again, people should buy the book.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:31]: I want folks to that there are practical guides.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:33]: There are charts and diagrams as any good researcher or user experience professional would?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:38]: Let's start with preparation.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:39]: Quickly, what is preparation?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:41]: How can a lack of or a reduction of preparation cause, research waste, and how can we begin to address preparation issues with our our waste.

Jake Burghardt [0:19:51]: Absolutely.

Jake Burghardt [0:19:51]: Preparation is the idea.

Jake Burghardt [0:19:53]: If we've optimized the study process for a particular study.

Jake Burghardt [0:19:57]: And as you mentioned, there's sort of this conveyor belt of studies coming out of different researchers and different disciplines and streams, over time.

Jake Burghardt [0:20:05]: What are we doing in preparation is there's more we could do to prepare research for use over the long haul of product development?

Jake Burghardt [0:20:13]: It's acknowledging that that study timeframe frame isn't when a lot of important insights land.

Jake Burghardt [0:20:19]: They could be landing much later and that the report format itself is a useful communication, but it's one of many potential communications.

Jake Burghardt [0:20:27]: I think the explosion and tooling and re research has shown how mu research could be in terms of its presentation while still being valid and useful, you know?

Jake Burghardt [0:20:38]: So what's the format that's gonna crack the problem of crossing that divide between existing insights and planning in your organization.

Jake Burghardt [0:20:46]: How can we organize research so that it's pushed, not just find, what are new forms of reporting that we can create across all this.

Jake Burghardt [0:20:54]: So a bunch of ideas in there.

Jake Burghardt [0:20:56]: And what does it look like when you're seeing this problem?

Jake Burghardt [0:20:58]: You know, you got researchers in different parts the organization that have no idea what each other are doing.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:04]: You

Jake Burghardt [0:21:04]: know, we always talk about duplicate projects with research repo is a problem.

Jake Burghardt [0:21:07]: But, you know there's a lot of value beyond going after the same question.

Jake Burghardt [0:21:11]: I didn't even think to go after that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:13]: Right?

Jake Burghardt [0:21:13]: There's kind of cross talk where folks are talking to the same stakeholders, and, you know, they're kinda picking and choosing among options because the research hasn't kinda pulled together a point of view.

Jake Burghardt [0:21:23]: There's also sorts of things we can talk about in preparation, but that sort of quick summary of that root cause.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:28]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:28]: And within the preparation section, you talk about silo, knowledge knowledge consolidation tools and organization now for later.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:36]: Could we talk a bit just about silos how they just alluded to it there within, like, not just silos between researcher and stakeholder, but intra research silos.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:46]: Wherein in, you know, if you're on a an embedded team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:48]: You you might be this one researcher who supports a kind of product or a product feature, but you might have four or five other researchers working across different products.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:56]: What are ways that we as researchers begin can begin to break down the silos between one another and identify those opportunities.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:04]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:04]: Absolutely.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:05]: I would even go so far as to say, within, a, given researcher, there may be silos between projects.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:10]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:11]: Where they're not adding up their learning.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:22:14]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:14]: Ways to start breaking it down, there are ways that are sort of, like, intro and building community, and then there's more formal information structure ways.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:22]: In terms of building community, you, it's making sure the channels are there and sharing more broadly across.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:28]: It's about looking for opportunities for researchers to find new audiences, eat for each other's work.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:35]: And stitching it into their own work.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:38]: You know, you can get really fancy with this, but the most basic ideas is, how can we turn study processes into not just that latest sample and method for those questions but a download on what's been learned so far.

Jake Burghardt [0:22:55]: And that's hard without some of the more advanced steps, but it's still doable to bring in more and that kind of collaboration and getting more value out of other people's research builds goodwill.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:06]: So they get those wins as well.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:08]: And from a decision maker side, from the study plan onward to the deliverable, they're getting more understanding.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:14]: So finding concrete ways, and the book is about, you know, change management is not just painting a vision.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:21]: And it's about really concrete steps that people can take.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:25]: The framework of these root causes gives paints a picture of what you might do You'll come up with ideas that I had never consider.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:31]: But then there's a lot of concrete actions to say, if we did this on a recurring basis, we'd start to make progress towards this abstract thing, and there's a couple of ideas within the preparation request.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:41]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:23:42]: Breaking down some course.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:43]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:43]: And it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:44]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:44]: I'm reminded of the increase.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:46]: It's it's longstanding standing.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:47]: But a of Ux research or research guild that happen internally.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:50]: Mh, folks get together and they do lunch and learns and they do off sites, especially at organizations where the research team is very dispersed.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:58]: Throughout different kinds of products.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:00]: They might, you, you might have some who report into design, some report, you know, there's...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:04]: I know you have Andy War as one of the the k of the boat shout out to Andy.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:08]: He does a lot of thinking around to whom what team should research roll up to and it isn't often its own thing.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:14]: And so there is this segmentation and dispersion, but I hear so much from from researchers who love to get together, and remember, researchers listening, that's what our partner organizations have done, and our partner departments have done.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:26]: To earn that credibility and expertise.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:29]: We are experts in whether you consider yourself a design thinker or you're you're a human factor scientist, you know, we have a set of skills that give us expertise such that we can influence decisions in new York.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:40]: That's what we're here to do.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:41]: I think sometimes we...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:42]: Because we're, you know, we're often really focused on our projects.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:45]: You said there's can sometimes be intra silo.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:48]: You know, we like to...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:49]: I mean, I'll speak for myself.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:50]: I love getting into an interview guide or spending hours on a survey, but what are your colleagues who maybe support a different kind of project doing.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:58]: And that...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:24:58]: Those actions not only help you as you're alluding to Jake, get us, sharper and billboard more visibility, but it helps us build that those...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:06]: That that sense for the organization that we are worth consulting with.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:10]: We are a practice that is always growing.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:12]: I mean, I think about my sales and revenue friends.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:14]: They are always coaching one another and checking in on feedback that they take so many great parts of research and and just sort of design thinking and they they apply them to their own practices.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:24]: I I I think that we ought to.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:26]: And I know this is happening in many org, but an idea of a Ux skilled, I think really is something we need to take on more.

Speaker_1 [0:25:32]: Awkward interruption.

Speaker_1 [0:25:33]: This episode of Awkward Silences like every episode of Awkward Silences is brought to you by User Interviews.

Speaker_2 [0:25:40]: We know that finding participants for research is hard.

Speaker_2 [0:25:42]: User Interviews is the fastest way to recruit targeted, high quality participants for any kind of research.

Speaker_2 [0:25:48]: We're not a testing file.

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Speaker_1 [0:25:57]: Go to User Interviews dot com slash awkward to get your first three participants free.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:04]: I think it speaks to the fact it doesn't have to be a re org.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:06]: It can be in in its most extreme case, but I'm...

Jake Burghardt [0:26:08]: This a very pragmatic book.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:10]: I'm trying to start with where people are at.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:26:12]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:12]: I talk about once you've had some experiments towards value you know, that are turning into operations, having an umbrella of an initiative over the top.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:22]: It's a collective voice for research.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:24]: And, you know, even potentially impact tracking at the initiative level all the way down, so that to your point, you know, we're a force where collective stakeholder.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:33]: So much research work part of our challenge has been...

Jake Burghardt [0:26:37]: It's...

Jake Burghardt [0:26:37]: Like you said say, people love the individualistic aspect of it.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:40]: I do too.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:41]: Sure.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:41]: But there's a lot of value that comes from creating a movement together, and becoming a collective stakeholder, not just individual voices.

Jake Burghardt [0:26:49]: So some of the impacts that people's strategic things that people wanna see are just not gonna happen in a lot of context by kind of continuing to soldier on as disconnected researchers.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:00]: Mh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:00]: Some of your time has been with the research operations community shout out to Holly and Kate in the re ops world.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:06]: They're doing great work.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:07]: I think it's it's also quite telling that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:10]: And again, I don't wanna say that re ops is brand new because lots of solo researchers have been doing research operations work.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:16]: A friend of mine is one of the research operations folks at Rocket Mortgage and she talks about how...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:21]: If you're a a solo researcher, guess what you're doing research operations.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:24]: You're managing your incentives thinking about, you know, you're informed consent documentation.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:28]: You're figuring out how, And this is what I wanna ask you about knowledge consolidation is happening or isn't happening.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:33]: So we could have a whole pod on insights repo or libraries.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:37]: But this is something that you as someone who has an operations mindset believe in.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:42]: It can often feel daunting.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:43]: So is there a way...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:45]: I guess, what is your take on and how do you view the the crush of, attention around knowledge management, knowledge consolidation?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:54]: And is it a...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:55]: How does it fit in with reducing or or slowing research waste?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:59]: It's a big question, but is there something that's very top of mind?

Jake Burghardt [0:28:02]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:02]: I can I can run with that?

Jake Burghardt [0:28:03]: It's a topic.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:05]: I've spent a lot of time so I I'm super excited about the trend in the industry, and It aligns to this.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:11]: It's sort of where I started was tooling and I expanded outward.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:14]: If you think about supporting a lot of...

Jake Burghardt [0:28:16]: There's no one right answer to this and a lot of the articles saves state your goals, you know?

Jake Burghardt [0:28:21]: Like...

Jake Burghardt [0:28:21]: But I tried to start with some goals in the

Ben Wiedmaier [0:28:24]: book.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:28:24]: Okay.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:25]: Because I have this lens of reducing research waste, what's most useful for doing that.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:29]: And the other piece is because I use a big definition of customer research.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:33]: We can include all those different kinds of researchers, workflows in the tool.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:38]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:38]: I think there's the idea of one tool to rule them all as you sort of mentioned, but it's just not the reality.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:43]: The researchers have tool stacks.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:28:45]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:45]: And, a network of researchers will have different ones.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:48]: So I think the baseline where everybody comes together and the thing that's lower effort is to start consolidating reports into a report library.

Jake Burghardt [0:28:56]: Any kind of reporting output it's the basis of ongoing synthesis, and, you know, it can can conduct meta analysis.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:04]: All those things I was talking about about turning reports into a download of what's been known.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:08]: You know, you need some place that's consolidated to go.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:11]: It fits into this model of Ai supported discovery that people are exploring.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:16]: You can churn it also.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:17]: Sorts it's some models against it, whatever is, you know, approved and ethical in your organization.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:22]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:22]: And it's not a huge ask.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:25]: In terms of, like, additions to workflow, the golden rule and all these sorts of efforts, is that researchers need to get a lot more out of it than they put into it in order to do it.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:35]: It's standard change management.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:29:37]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:38]: By adding a report, it's a small step where you can see other people using your research, other researchers pulling it into their insights over the long term.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:46]: So that's the base, the object that I proposed for collaboration because we talk about collaboration and breaking down silos and everybody nods is that sounds great.

Jake Burghardt [0:29:55]: And then, you know, we have a meeting and we're we're all happy about it, and then what do we actually do.

Jake Burghardt [0:30:00]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:30:00]: We we need a concrete object.

Jake Burghardt [0:30:02]: You know?

Jake Burghardt [0:30:03]: And in the atomic conversation, from Daniel Hitchcock and Tomas, Again, points the plastic of this, And but my focus on reducing research waste points to to a particular kind of object, Mh which is insight summary, which isn't broken down into a ton of different things.

Jake Burghardt [0:30:21]: I suppose it could be in a tool, but it's a one stop shop for a single insight with a great title.

Jake Burghardt [0:30:28]: Its own Url and supporting evidence.

Jake Burghardt [0:30:31]: And you can get really fancy from there and create an insight summary hub and all those sorts of things.

Jake Burghardt [0:30:36]: But just start with, it's just saying What are the top insights that aren't moving the needle?

Jake Burghardt [0:30:41]: How can we create this sort of new kind of report?

Jake Burghardt [0:30:44]: And we're gonna ask people to cite this in their plans?

Jake Burghardt [0:30:47]: And by creating the muscle of actually linking to different things and research repo you grow the visibility of research, you show how it's useful as an internal product and other people can start to emulate?

Jake Burghardt [0:31:00]: Because otherwise, why would someone think to use existing research.

Jake Burghardt [0:31:03]: They're not seeing it in the win of their colleague that they really value.

Jake Burghardt [0:31:07]: So...

Jake Burghardt [0:31:08]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:31:08]: To your point, We can do a whole podcast on that.

Jake Burghardt [0:31:10]: But that's like a quick idea.

Jake Burghardt [0:31:12]: There's a lot more in the book.

Jake Burghardt [0:31:13]: I put some articles out on medium as well on those topics if you wanna dig into those.

Jake Burghardt [0:31:17]: I can share link.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:18]: We're we'll link to those, But but that...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:19]: That's such a nice.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:20]: It's there's gotta be some term for it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:22]: You're...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:22]: You've distilled a really complex thing, which is what you're advocating and advancing that folks do.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:27]: Our own internal researchers here at User Interviews we.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:30]: We have one of them who supports our whole org, and she has gotten really good shout to Morgan.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:33]: She has gotten really good about thinking.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:35]: Okay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:35]: For some of my stakeholders like Ben, he's gonna wanna dig into the method and the sample.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:39]: But for some of our stakeholders, maybe on the engineering or our operations, or they really just need that nugget that Adam of Okay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:47]: The thing you learned and how I can use it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:49]: And I think that's good for, several reasons?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:51]: It helps remind researchers of, just like we were talking about earlier, how is your research being used or not?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:58]: And then what is the function of research in your org?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:01]: Is it to inform a decision?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:03]: Probably So help inform that decision, And and I love the bread crumb.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:07]: The, how do how can someone backtrack to something like a repository To again coach that, like, oh I wanna learn a little more.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:14]: Where do I go?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:15]: Oh, right.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:15]: I go to the insight up.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:17]: I go to the notion doc or the confluence space.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:19]: You know, it can look where, however it needs to look, think about where your stakeholders are again, as Jake was saying earlier, do that inventory of where things are happening, But I love that it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:27]: It's a good...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:28]: I I think for...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:29]: I'll speak for myself.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:30]: For too long, I have thought my research methods are and my tooling and my approach to analysis are so eye opening that people are just gonna get it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:38]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:38]: And certainly, I'm a great talker.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:39]: I'm gonna talk it so good, but it doesn't always resonate people's time They have noise cognitive.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:45]: They've got childcare or Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:47]: Something outside of work or something within work that's bothering or just, you know, cloud them.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:52]: And so I love that insight summary.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:53]: One of your pieces of advice that I think is so great and and it'll it'll lean into our next section is write these titles with your stakeholders?

Jake Burghardt [0:33:00]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:33:01]: I love that idea of inviting the people who you want to use the research into the shaping and creation of the nugget?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:33:08]: Can can you talk a bit about that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:33:10]: Why do you think it's important that someone who will be using the research or your partners or stakeholders be invited in on that process so often, researchers can be really guarded?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:33:18]: Like, no I'm gonna mold my insight clay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:33:20]: Why was that important for you to include?

Jake Burghardt [0:33:23]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:33:23]: The the insight clay, certainly, there's the research process and, you know, validity and all those things that clay, people don't wanna open up and understandably so.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:33:34]: Sure.

Jake Burghardt [0:33:35]: But there's the layers on top of it that are about communicating.

Jake Burghardt [0:33:37]: And it's about finding that articulation, and, you know, in the book, I talk about title standards even.

Jake Burghardt [0:33:44]: If you have Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:33:45]: All sorts of folks contributing their insights to a common space.

Jake Burghardt [0:33:49]: Suddenly, they need...

Jake Burghardt [0:33:51]: When they're parallel, it's just so much easier to sort through a bunch of insights.

Jake Burghardt [0:33:55]: And then within those, whatever format your team decides, you know, I leaned into At ten things kaleidoscope article from Uber sort of a mad l format, but whatever format you decide.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:06]: And then the question is, you know, what's the articulation that inspires?

Jake Burghardt [0:34:11]: Also points to what's next.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:13]: So imagine, let's do a quick thought experiment.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:15]: You got a ton of insight summaries built up over time.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:19]: And these are all really important things, and you've tagged them to owning teams, which is the most important metadata for getting stuff done with insights, and you filter down to a set of insight summaries, and you do a report of that that is really just the titles of those insights summaries.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:37]: To your point about the abstraction and the feeling that researchers get, you know, I've showed up to a team and, you know, most of those titles bounced off because where they were adding in their process, and they gave feedback on the titles and we changed them.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:53]: They were executing.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:54]: They weren't ready to think about this stuff.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:34:56]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:34:57]: Planning cycle comes up, bring back the exact same list.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:00]: So many of them have face validity to them, and it's not the first time they've seen them that they don't want to dig into the details.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:08]: It's kind of horrifying for a researcher.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:11]: But if informing a decision and giving them a good planning problem to solve is the goal, you know, of course, implement can dig into the details, but the certain maker got what they needed.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:21]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:21]: So all of this...

Jake Burghardt [0:35:23]: It it adds a layer on top of research, you know, research.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:27]: It's not about changing how researchers are working today.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:30]: Right.

Jake Burghardt [0:35:31]: About tweaking some things and adding on layers that can then turn up their impact over time.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:36]: Mh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:36]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:37]: Oh, I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:38]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:38]: And you are in that in that example, you are there either physically or digitally, the face, the voice next to the name next to the stack of decisions.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:47]: Like, oh, right, man.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:48]: Jake and Ben, on that research team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:50]: Gosh, they've they helped us avoid these misses.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:53]: They helped us orient toward these hits.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:55]: Let's give them more head counter.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:57]: Or let's, you know, let's keep them around.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:58]: You, again, there's this sort of cl that researchers feel.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:02]: That's that's how you can justify and and advocate for your value.

Jake Burghardt [0:36:06]: Absolutely.

Jake Burghardt [0:36:06]: At the individual level, if folks use those insight summaries, your research is linkedin there.

Jake Burghardt [0:36:11]: All the researchers that contributed to those insight summaries on some topics it can be several.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:17]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:36:17]: They all get to share the credit.

Jake Burghardt [0:36:18]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:36:19]: And that's credit that they wouldn't have gotten, otherwise, it's the impact that they wouldn't have had.

Jake Burghardt [0:36:24]: So, yes, scaling these good things over time both at the individual level, but also organizational, how do we think about research and the value it provides and how can we fund that?

Jake Burghardt [0:36:34]: Mh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:35]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:35]: And, of course, I've done the thing that I said at the top, I would not to.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:38]: The the Ai summaries that are included as helpful as they are in many of these tools.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:42]: That I get so many emails.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:44]: They're like, ben, You need to stop talking so much.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:46]: Let your guess.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:47]: I'm sure this one's gonna be like, you know Ben as c host and not really being a c.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:50]: So I'm...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:51]: I I will encourage folks to check out the book again for the three frames.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:55]: We just talked about preparation.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:57]: We have motivation and integration.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:58]: I'm wondering if we could actually skip motivation for a moment and linger an integration because so much of what you've...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:04]: You know, these three root causes are inter related, they're integrated And and they speak to one another, walk me through or unpack how a lack of integration or integration functions as waste and...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:16]: Wondering if you could talk a bit about recurring interactions.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:19]: I hear from so so many researchers that they are struggling to get facetime with their stakeholders struggling to get that influence that seat at the tables as it were.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:29]: So what is integration as it relates to waste?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:32]: And how have you helped people push and engage with their stakeholders in a recurring way?

Jake Burghardt [0:37:38]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:37:38]: Such a great question.

Jake Burghardt [0:37:40]: I mean, integration is a root cause is that folks don't have enough touch points, the right touch points with research.

Jake Burghardt [0:37:46]: If we think about sort of normal research process and the conclusion of a study, those moments where you're trying to connect, maybe some of your insights have impact in other teams potentially, which is as the organizations become increasingly fragmented is a trend in the industry.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:01]: Sure.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:01]: That whole relational model that we talk about being close with stakeholders gets harder and harder.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:06]: So figuring out ways to integrate is, key point, but even with the stakeholder that you know well, and, you're trying to influence, you know, the idea that sort of the end of a study is the the touch points that will make that happen.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:19]: It's really about seeing what other touch points can we have to bring back research.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:24]: If it's not a face to face meeting to tell that compelling story, what are the things that can help the intended audience, build minds share for an insight over time?

Jake Burghardt [0:38:35]: And, you know, eventually connect about it.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:38]: When we talk about broadcasting research or sharing research, we're often talking about, sort of, you know, a common model I see in organizations is study process, and then some newsletters from different teams and things.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:51]: Right.

Jake Burghardt [0:38:52]: All those things fail to reach a level oftentimes where they motivate people to be more interested in research.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:00]: Their leaders that person's leader hasn't seen research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:03]: Right.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:04]: They haven't seen the impact that research out on their peers.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:06]: So they don't know.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:07]: So there's just a lot of ideas for turning up visibility whether that's broadcasting all new insights because we...

Jake Burghardt [0:39:13]: That are coming into this sort of shared initiative whether that's...

Jake Burghardt [0:39:17]: You know, and we know that new research has this halo around it that draws interest, and that's an opportunity to tell stories about how research is being used in other things, whether it's about filtering and insights and and making sure, you know, didn't wanna meet about that, but here's a download of the most important unused or underutilized insights for this team.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:37]: Mh.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:37]: And, you know, it's gonna be sent broadly.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:40]: There's a sense that sometimes research, it's one of a voice among many.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:46]: If you start consolidating those voices together, and you give it more visibility.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:50]: Suddenly, there's more...

Jake Burghardt [0:39:51]: You're a more collective stakeholder, and you have more...

Jake Burghardt [0:39:54]: It's about elevating your role as a stakeholder if their leaders are interested in these things.

Jake Burghardt [0:39:58]: And then it comes down to, you know, there's a chapter and integration on citation.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:03]: You know, you never get to a hundred percent, obviously.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:06]: Sure.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:06]: Not the point.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:06]: You know, but it's an accidental side effect from that I've doubled down on in this book where by giving everything its own Url, people find value and linking to it to justify their own efforts.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:20]: And by justifying their own efforts and then doing great things, other people might might see that and wanna emulate it.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:26]: And everything from some people hear citation and they sort of bulk, you know, But if you just think of it as it's not an academic thing, It's just you're linking to the research and the repo.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:37]: Right.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:37]: That you're you're using to justify what you're doing.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:40]: And I've seen those go straight to the top, you, Ceo documents full of them.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:44]: So there's a chapter on that.

Jake Burghardt [0:40:46]: And then the the last chapter is about finding those moments, those points to bring research back, You know, how can we push research into different kinds of decisions and find those collaborations with design, find the right moments and owning teams do some of the work of marking up their plans with inside.

Jake Burghardt [0:41:04]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:41:05]: You know, working in their spaces to make research visible.

Jake Burghardt [0:41:09]: And then, you know, at a leadership level, once you've had some successes at those other levels tied into business reporting, I've heard people working in apply.

Jake Burghardt [0:41:19]: It's resource planning cycles to motivate res sourcing, you know, all sorts of amazing things that can happen.

Jake Burghardt [0:41:24]: By kind of building the...

Jake Burghardt [0:41:26]: A culture of being more specific about the research that's being used.

Jake Burghardt [0:41:30]: People know it's valuable because it's very visible and because they've seen how it has impacted various streams of work.

Jake Burghardt [0:41:38]: And a great insight is it speaks for itself.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:41:41]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:41:41]: Some listeners may may hear.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:41:44]: Gosh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:41:44]: That sounds like a lot of work for me, either the research I know.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:41:47]: Sometimes our community can feel that we're maybe under loved and that the work we have to do all the the carrying of the water for for the user quote unquote.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:41:56]: I think there is an extent to which our partners opt to meet us, and they will once they see that they're...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:02]: The product teams who are leveraging customer insights are gonna have better product.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:06]: And, they're gonna have less churn.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:08]: They're gonna have more...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:09]: You know, they're gonna have wider adoption.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:11]: They're gonna...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:11]: Like, they'll...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:12]: Like, if we've done our job, trust me.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:15]: That those designs will be sharper.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:16]: Our access will be speaking to different sorts of users like that'll happen, and it is also up to us.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:22]: And on us a bit to know how product decisions are made, know how leadership interacts with product teams, all the things you've been talking about, Jake.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:30]: It it pays dividends.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:31]: So what you've been talking about at the at the upfront where you prepare, kinda do an inventory.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:36]: Here it is again.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:37]: How can you check in with your stakeholders?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:39]: Do they do a a quick retro at the end of a Sprint?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:41]: You should be there.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:42]: And if you don't know whether they do find out if they do?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:45]: I know that sometimes that can feel like gosh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:47]: But I just delivered the project shouldn't Did Do my job, but Well, that...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:51]: There's more.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:51]: There's more there.

Jake Burghardt [0:42:52]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:42:52]: And and to speak to that individualistic wrote...

Jake Burghardt [0:42:55]: Just for a moment.

Jake Burghardt [0:42:56]: Is...

Jake Burghardt [0:42:56]: Again, this is about an initiative.

Jake Burghardt [0:42:58]: You know, this isn't one person doesn't do all this work.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:01]: And what do initiatives have the benefit of that a individual research team doesn't.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:06]: You know, they can report more broadly to leadership.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:09]: They can ask for project based resources.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:12]: If it's a planning cycle and you need to go back to all those teams, could there reach someone from corporate op or sometimes even finance, you know, other staff folks that are interested that can do some of this lifting.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:22]: So this isn't about adding a long list of things to individual researchers workload, doing the things that they find most valuable.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:30]: But as you know, I have this model from Walk...

Jake Burghardt [0:43:33]: Our crawl Walk run marathon.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:35]: Certainly, what we're talking about there is marathon, you know, run and marathon.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:40]: Sure.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:40]: And you don't get there unless you have additional resources in the mix.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:44]: And, you know, researchers can help set that vision and don't have to do all the work themselves.

Jake Burghardt [0:43:49]: But, you know, it's it's more of an initiative mindset than this individualistic mindset.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:54]: I appreciate that call.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:55]: And I...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:55]: I...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:56]: That is something I can sometimes fall prey to wherein in, you know, I'm writing an article and it's like, well, step one, get alignment with your stakeholders and like, well, ben, that's that's an entire program that requires fifteen stakeholders.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:07]: So Right.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:08]: I wanna close with a few things.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:10]: First, what is that crawl step.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:12]: We've talked about a lot of different ways, Certainly folks listening, you know, take the strategies and fit them into your organization.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:19]: But generally, Jake, I'm asking you to paint with a very broad brush.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:22]: What is something that a research practitioner or a designer a product manager someone who in your engages with or collect human customer insights do next week to start thinking about and addressing research waste.

Jake Burghardt [0:44:34]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:44:34]: Next week, you could be at, you know, these early stages about showing that there's value in existing research.

Jake Burghardt [0:44:41]: So we talked about kind of taking a lens and having a look, doesn't have to be super formal, just starting to talk about it.

Jake Burghardt [0:44:48]: It's about on your next research project, trying to be the model of collaboration that brings in additional data that turns your report into a download on what's been learned, not just the latest sample, so starting that process.

Jake Burghardt [0:45:02]: And, you know, starting to connect about how you can raise shared visibility together.

Jake Burghardt [0:45:08]: Instead of trying to just push upward on your own, starting to have conversations with folks, and there's a bunch of strategies, you know, in the book.

Jake Burghardt [0:45:16]: But, you know, I think if I was to pick sort of early moves for next week, I would say those.

Jake Burghardt [0:45:21]: I think, the last one is When you're planning your next study, extend the time frame.

Jake Burghardt [0:45:27]: Overlap your studies, and when you're activating one study, go back and activate some of the previous stuff as well, check in on those things.

Jake Burghardt [0:45:37]: Treat every activation phase from any study as an opportunity to talk to folks about past insights that maybe haven't landed yet.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:45]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:46]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:46]: It shows the value of research as a program.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:48]: It reminds the researcher of the holistic nature of their work.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:52]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:53]: Pulling back or, you know, sort of you have your one hand on the one project and what you've learned is a bad analogy.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:58]: I don't know what this one hand is doing, but it's it's it's helping propel the other hand?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:02]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:02]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:03]: Okay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:03]: So that's how we can start next week.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:05]: How about someone who is new to the research space?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:08]: You can answer this either by giving that person who's listening some advice or advice that you would have given We Jake.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:14]: However many years ago was, let's say it was five years ago when you first started in the research Ux world.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:19]: What do you wish you knew then that you know now and or what advice would you give to an early career person whether they're transitioning into this career or there may be starting their career in user experience and customer insights generally.

Jake Burghardt [0:46:33]: Oh, it's a great question.

Jake Burghardt [0:46:35]: It's over twenty years at this point.

Jake Burghardt [0:46:37]: Got started in dot com.

Jake Burghardt [0:46:39]: But I think, especially these days, there's intense pressure to meet current needs to meet some of the current needs push back on others and take some time as an expert in your space to own your space, whether that's adding on research questions onto your studies that are much broader than anyone cares about at the moment, but they may care about later or, you know, thinking of the systems that are gonna help you do some of those things to extend your reach of your insights and get more value out of them.

Jake Burghardt [0:47:10]: But, you know, Stepping trying to take some orders, but make some of your own orders as well and don't always ask permission.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:19]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:19]: Love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:20]: Okay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:20]: Finally, because we're we're researchers researching research, so I wanna ask her a a self reflective question.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:26]: Mh.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:26]: How has the process or how...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:29]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:29]: Writing this book changed you as a thinker as a researcher as a an insights professional, you know, you you you said at the top, you don't often get the opportunity to really sit with a topic.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:41]: You know, mean, I know there are some roles that our staff or principal researchers that can kinda live in that squishy zone of strategic research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:47]: How was the practice of writing this book affect you as a researcher?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:51]: How do you think your practice will change going forward having gone through this?

Jake Burghardt [0:47:55]: Yeah.

Jake Burghardt [0:47:55]: I mean, I think I will always place more emphasis on building cross silo community as foundation.

Jake Burghardt [0:48:06]: I think I've worked as an individual plowing my own path that heads down thing that we all enjoy as it's sort of a, a, personality characteristic of a lot of researchers.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:48:17]: Sure.

Jake Burghardt [0:48:18]: But, you know, building the bridges that can lead to standards that can then lead to actual collaboration and shared information that can lead to shared impact I think that there's sort of a mindset there that has been growing over time for me, but the articulation of it in this book has made it seem like some of

Ben Wiedmaier [0:48:42]: the most important parts of the work.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:48:44]: Love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:48:45]: The book is stop wasting research maximize the product impact of your organization's customer insights.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:48:50]: Jake, thank you so very much for some time.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:48:53]: Check out the book we'll be sending some promo codes to listeners. You can learn more about the book, Jake's work.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:48:58]: As well as Integrating Research in the show notes.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:49:01]: Thank you so much, my friend.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:49:02]: I really appreciate the time.

Jake Burghardt [0:49:04]: Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Jake Burghardt [0:49:05]: I really enjoyed the conversation.

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