Natalie Golub [0:00:00]: What human strengths do...

Natalie Golub [0:00:02]: We as researchers have that we should be doubling down on if we can use Ai for thing.

Natalie Golub [0:00:08]: They are being authentic and genuine having someone be able to talk to.

Natalie Golub [0:00:14]: Biting into, like, a real orange is obviously always way better than than, like, a fake orange juice.

Natalie Golub [0:00:19]: And so I think that's always gonna be true with humans.

Natalie Golub [0:00:21]: It's gonna be influence as we've talked about.

Natalie Golub [0:00:24]: And then, it's gonna be asking right questions.

Natalie Golub [0:00:26]: And I think those are three human strengths as researchers.

Erin May [0:00:33]: Hey.

Erin May [0:00:33]: This is Erin May, and this is Carol Guest.

Carol Guest [0:00:36]: And this is Awkward Silences.

Carol Guest [0:00:39]: Awkward Silences is brought to you by User Interviews.

Carol Guest [0:00:43]: The fastest way to recruit targeted high quality participants for any kind of research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:00:53]: Hey welcome to Awkward Silences, I'm Ben.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:00:55]: Today's episode is all about collaboration, influence and building the future, even when you might not know exactly what it looks like.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:05]: My guests to help us take on that topic are S Pay, who is the head of design and research, at base for Coinbase, and Natalie Golub, who is the head of Ux xr at Base also for Coinbase.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:17]: Now, base is an interesting product as you'll hear, it does a lot.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:22]: It has a lot of different customers and users It's a network that offers a secure and low cost way for anyone to build decentralized apps chain.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:32]: So it's part of the crypto space more broadly.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:35]: And in our conversation, we do talk a little bit about that area and that industry if you're interested in it, stay tuned.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:01:41]: But we spend the most of our time talking about how teams that work at really scrappy, innovative and really fast moving industries can structure themselves so that they can both execute and do the work that they're hired there to do, but to make sure that they have rigor influence and that they can sustain that work.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:02]: So it's a really good conversation for anyone building a team or working on a team, especially if you are a designer or researcher or someone who collaborate with those two teams.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:11]: Natalie and Sc have really, really great perspective, they've worked at small companies in big companies and Coinbase is moving fast and doing some really, really interesting stuff.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:20]: So Here's my conversation with S and Natalie of Coinbase.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:24]: Enjoy.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:25]: Natalie and Shalin, welcome to Awkward Silences.

Shalin Pei [0:02:33]: Hi.

Shalin Pei [0:02:33]: Thanks for having us.

Shalin Pei [0:02:34]: Thank you.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:35]: So excited to talk about all the things in our back and forth, I was, I think mis labeling what coinbase based does, trying to be cool using, you know, d defy blockchain using all my acronyms.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:46]: So one of the things I'm hoping our our listeners can get out of the conversation is a bit more understanding about that space from your Po.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:02:53]: And also, I really wanna dig into collaboration, scale, and how you've structured the work between and within your teams that's...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:03]: I'm just so interested in how different organizations are thinking about the need to connect with and learn from their customers and then how they're helping their internal teams do that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:11]: So lots of stuff to cover.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:12]: But why don't we start with what is coinbase?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:15]: And then if you could say a bit more about the product or the space within coinbase that you work on specifically?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:20]: Let's start a coinbase.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:03:21]: What is it?

Shalin Pei [0:03:23]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:03:23]: I could kinda give a high level of how Describe crypto to friends that are not in the space is kind of funny because, like, I live New York.

Shalin Pei [0:03:30]: I have a lot of friends of finance.

Shalin Pei [0:03:31]: The first thing I was gonna ask me if find I work the coin coinbase base So like what should I buy.

Shalin Pei [0:03:35]: So And I'm like, Am literally the worst person and to ask for that.

Shalin Pei [0:03:38]: First of all, like, I'm not investor mine.

Shalin Pei [0:03:40]: So the way I describe it is, I think there's two halves to, like, the crypto space.

Shalin Pei [0:03:45]: This one half that really wants to build a new bank, build a new banking system.

Shalin Pei [0:03:48]: They're very interested in, like, instant cross border payments.

Shalin Pei [0:03:52]: They're really interested in, like, hedging inflation, safe holding value.

Shalin Pei [0:03:56]: They're interested in, like, investing and trading to help you go grow their wealth.

Shalin Pei [0:04:00]: Then there's the other side that's much more, like, building a new internet.

Shalin Pei [0:04:03]: And that's a like that that me and I work a a lot on.

Shalin Pei [0:04:06]: We work on base, which is, like, a section within Coinbase.

Shalin Pei [0:04:08]: And then the way I kinda describe is that, we support both consumers and developers.

Shalin Pei [0:04:13]: And I liken this a lot to, like, Web one if you've been working this long.

Shalin Pei [0:04:17]: The way I describe is, like, I work on Coinbase baseball, which recently got relaunch as the base app Have to look about that.

Shalin Pei [0:04:23]: To me that, like, we're building Nets.

Shalin Pei [0:04:25]: We're putting the gateway to, like, this whole new Internet.

Shalin Pei [0:04:27]: And with that Lee focuses on is, like, helping developers.

Shalin Pei [0:04:30]: So I call out the Geo.

Shalin Pei [0:04:31]: It's like, we're giving tools right I we just go wild and build anything their imagination can come up with.

Shalin Pei [0:04:36]: So bring the gateway to this brand new universe that is being built out right now.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:04:41]: Natalie, anything to add?

Natalie Golub [0:04:43]: I guess something I would add is that something that we think about is, like, just as S said that we're building a new Internet.

Natalie Golub [0:04:49]: So base is part of coinbase, but it's so much different than, like, the investing part.

Natalie Golub [0:04:55]: Mh.

Natalie Golub [0:04:56]: And and there's people like us on base Believe that this is the new Internet, and it's gonna be about decent centralization about ownership about transparency, so that comes through on our research too.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:09]: That's great.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:09]: Well, I'm curious.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:10]: It strikes me from the outside that and granted I know lots of user researchers and designers and experience thinkers work at a fast pace for those listeners I'm using air quotes because it's always fast even if you're at a more slow moving company.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:22]: I feel like it's probably pretty fast there.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:25]: The industry is evolving.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:26]: Sometimes week over week.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:27]: You've got governance and legislation that's evolving and trying to catch up with the amazing innovations that you all on your team are still trying to figure out both how can it work and how can we share it with users?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:38]: High level, as designers and researchers, have you had to adopt new practices?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:05:42]: How have you sort of evolved to meet the moment that Coinbase and base is asking of you?

Natalie Golub [0:05:48]: Yeah.

Natalie Golub [0:05:48]: We're very fast.

Natalie Golub [0:05:50]: Like, I look fast now at all the research I ever did, and I'm, like, why did it take weak to do a study.

Natalie Golub [0:05:55]: I can just do pop a study in a couple days now.

Natalie Golub [0:05:58]: The way that we go really fast has one has to do with scale.

Natalie Golub [0:06:02]: So we're a really nimble team and we think of really scrappy.

Natalie Golub [0:06:06]: We're a really scrappy team.

Natalie Golub [0:06:08]: Thinking about, like, how do we get the most bang for our buck because there's only three of us on this whole team.

Natalie Golub [0:06:13]: So we do a lot of initiatives at scale.

Natalie Golub [0:06:17]: One initiative that we do.

Natalie Golub [0:06:18]: We call it builder jam.

Natalie Golub [0:06:20]: We meet every single Friday, we have a panel of rotating builders that come in, and the design team actually comes every week, and they show a prototype.

Natalie Golub [0:06:29]: They show an idea, they show an really early design and they get feedback.

Natalie Golub [0:06:34]: That's one way that we help scale the team.

Natalie Golub [0:06:36]: So that way, what we're hoping to do is leverage this more and scale it across space so that way we can do end users too and design is really part of the practice.

Natalie Golub [0:06:46]: And then it helps us as researchers focus on more strategic work that we can go a little deeper on.

Natalie Golub [0:06:52]: That's one way.

Natalie Golub [0:06:53]: Another way that we really adapted to, like...

Natalie Golub [0:06:56]: So because the space is so changing and our audiences are so broad.

Natalie Golub [0:07:01]: We have builders.

Natalie Golub [0:07:02]: We have end users we have creators, and something that we've really tried to do is think about what are new ways we can meet our users where they are.

Natalie Golub [0:07:14]: So we do a lot...

Natalie Golub [0:07:15]: Just like everyone now.

Natalie Golub [0:07:16]: We do a lot of, like, remote studies.

Natalie Golub [0:07:18]: That works great for builders because they're at the computer.

Natalie Golub [0:07:21]: So they're developers at the computer, we're meeting them right where they are.

Natalie Golub [0:07:25]: They're just hopping on a screen.

Natalie Golub [0:07:26]: Just like they already are.

Natalie Golub [0:07:27]: When we first started researching creators, we...

Natalie Golub [0:07:32]: And I actually worked with the designer Shelley Lai on this.

Natalie Golub [0:07:35]: We were trying to figure out, like, how do we make this more authentic to creators because it's something about it feels a little bit.

Natalie Golub [0:07:41]: Not as fun, a little force, not as genuine to, like, pop on a remote interview and like, do you usability study.

Natalie Golub [0:07:49]: So we started this new practice called creator dinners, and we're work with marketing, and it's been great because it's been a win win for both marketing and for research and design.

Natalie Golub [0:07:59]: So we first had a great twenty person dinner in La.

Natalie Golub [0:08:03]: We made it fabulous.

Natalie Golub [0:08:05]: We had, like, the marketing team helped us neatly.

Natalie Golub [0:08:08]: The most beautiful floral arrangements.

Natalie Golub [0:08:10]: We had work fun restaurants.

Natalie Golub [0:08:13]: We had drinks.

Natalie Golub [0:08:13]: And we were able to slip in research questions throughout.

Natalie Golub [0:08:18]: So warn everyone when people that came there were Pms that came, mark marketing came and research and design came, we all were kinda harness with a few questions to ask.

Natalie Golub [0:08:27]: But it was just part of casual conversation.

Natalie Golub [0:08:30]: And then each of the dinner tables, we had a little form.

Natalie Golub [0:08:33]: It was like, a cute little questionnaire that was, like, very beautifully printed out, and everyone filled it out at the end.

Natalie Golub [0:08:38]: So that's one way that we're trying to always kind of...

Natalie Golub [0:08:41]: Think of new approaches to meet our very vast and participants where they are, and we also wanna like, keep up.

Natalie Golub [0:08:50]: We don't wanna we're as we ever, like, trying to start in new Internet.

Natalie Golub [0:08:54]: So we don't wanna use, like, just old formats.

Natalie Golub [0:08:56]: We wanna think about, like, new ones that we can bring.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:08:59]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:08:59]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:09:00]: I wanna revisit that scrap because I think one of the things I'm most interested in with the in the open structures is how you're maintaining scrap, scale, and rigor.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:09:08]: S, how about for you in the design and user experience more broadly?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:09:12]: How have you adapted or what have you been learning while working at Coinbase?

Shalin Pei [0:09:16]: There's a lot of things I think that really fast about just like, working in the crypto industry.

Shalin Pei [0:09:19]: I think one is...

Shalin Pei [0:09:21]: It definitely moves fast.

Shalin Pei [0:09:22]: We kinda joke that every week months it generally feels like that.

Shalin Pei [0:09:26]: Like, you people who are new and then, like, they're like, oh, congrats.

Shalin Pei [0:09:29]: You just hit your ninety days and almost like, what you've only been for ninety days.

Shalin Pei [0:09:33]: Like, it really looks like crazy fast.

Shalin Pei [0:09:35]: But, I think this a few things are actually really fascinating and unique about this industry.

Shalin Pei [0:09:38]: Where one is subject matter expertise.

Shalin Pei [0:09:41]: It's like, me, I didn't work in crypto before I came to coinbase base.

Shalin Pei [0:09:45]: I worked in, like, big fan companies and, like, tiny started up and stuff, but, like, I was casually interested in crypto though, but this is the first mac died dive into it.

Shalin Pei [0:09:52]: I had, like a little bit impostor syndrome being, like, Oh, my god.

Shalin Pei [0:09:55]: My Pm partner has been the space for, like, years.

Shalin Pei [0:09:57]: How many I gonna be, like, an equal partner to him.

Shalin Pei [0:10:00]: Sure.

Shalin Pei [0:10:00]: It literally was, like, three months later.

Shalin Pei [0:10:01]: I like, yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:10:02]: No we're caught up.

Shalin Pei [0:10:03]: Because it's constantly changing.

Shalin Pei [0:10:05]: Like, there's no way to meet someone who has, like, twenty years of com experience.

Shalin Pei [0:10:09]: It's constantly changing, and then you're kind of forced to be number forced to be entrepreneur or forced to be on your feet all the time, that even, like, the veterans are still constantly burning so trying to keep up.

Shalin Pei [0:10:18]: So it's actually, like, this great equal in a way.

Shalin Pei [0:10:20]: If you're hungry and curious, like, you can catch really quickly.

Shalin Pei [0:10:23]: I think it's suck is kinda but unique is I haven't working with Fintech before I came here.

Shalin Pei [0:10:28]: This is the close to get to fintech.

Shalin Pei [0:10:30]: But crypto cycles are, like, what, every two years, two, three years.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:33]: We have

Shalin Pei [0:10:34]: a bowl bare cycle.

Shalin Pei [0:10:34]: Right?

Shalin Pei [0:10:35]: And, like, I've been working long enough that, like, I graduated into right before the recession tested eight him I've seen recession.

Shalin Pei [0:10:41]: I seen growth, but we've been in massive growth for a long time.

Shalin Pei [0:10:44]: And the most recent recession, you saw so many people who've, like, had never experienced recession before.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:10:49]: Sure.

Shalin Pei [0:10:49]: And then meanwhile, all by crypto friends are like, we just deserve two years.

Shalin Pei [0:10:53]: We're fine.

Shalin Pei [0:10:53]: And I think it just kind of, you see people are operationally, like, ready to plan for that.

Shalin Pei [0:10:59]: You're ready to plan for periods of hyper gross.

Shalin Pei [0:11:01]: Ready you to plan for areas of hyper contraction.

Shalin Pei [0:11:04]: And as part of leadership, I do, like, the head cap planning and things like that.

Shalin Pei [0:11:08]: So when I first joined Coinbase base, my team was two designers, like, two designers.

Shalin Pei [0:11:12]: I think we got to, like, thirteen during, like, the the hype of the hyper growth period, and then cripple a winter hit, and then we have shin it back down.

Shalin Pei [0:11:19]: Mh.

Shalin Pei [0:11:20]: And I think that's something like find really admirable out research.

Shalin Pei [0:11:23]: Because researcher and actually really, really thin.

Shalin Pei [0:11:24]: So for what Natalie has to work with.

Shalin Pei [0:11:28]: She's been really, really creative and figure out ways that we can still get inside in this emerging space, we really have no idea what's gonna happen next.

Shalin Pei [0:11:34]: And still be trying to, like, work within the resources that we have when, like, you have a a much smaller team than you expect.

Shalin Pei [0:11:41]: You don't have a massive budget that you can work with.

Shalin Pei [0:11:43]: Then, also we're a full remote companies.

Shalin Pei [0:11:46]: So you don't have a research lab or any of the some of those tools that you typically are used to, but they're still able to get really creative and find ways get things done, and especially global aspect.

Shalin Pei [0:11:56]: It's like this industry is, like, still really nascent all around the world.

Shalin Pei [0:11:59]: But, like, you see these little pockets of innovation.

Shalin Pei [0:12:02]: So what's happening in Southeast Asia is it's totally hap different what's happening in Africa.

Shalin Pei [0:12:05]: Totally given what's happening here.

Shalin Pei [0:12:06]: And, do you know you would tap into those local communities and bikes see what's on the happy on the ground?

Shalin Pei [0:12:10]: I think it's huge.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:12]: Oh, I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:12]: And I think what I hear is a real benefit in being in a nascent space because so many designers and researchers often feel that impostor syndrome and they feel like they're trying to like, they have that craft, and they feel confident in their craft, but they're still trying to figure out how it fits and helps the business broadly do the mission.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:30]: And so each of you as we'll learn about later, is really committed to a Coinbase With boy base is trying to do, and there isn't that you have to learn, but there isn't quite the catch up on ramp.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:40]: I feel like sometimes researchers are either off in their corner or designers are just I'm just trying to do my craft.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:45]: I'm just gonna keep doing it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:47]: The business will happen and and we've gotten to the point where that isn't going to cut it, at least if you wanna have a a career longer than a couple of quarters.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:12:55]: And so there's been so many more discussions around, like, How do I make the Roi of design or how do I make the impact of research more visible and so many of rejoin are like, well, learn about the business and learn how what you do plugs into the business.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:06]: And it sounds like when you're joining this space or working in this space?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:09]: That's just part of it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:10]: You have to understand, like, Natalie the questions to ask in a screener.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:14]: How do I include and exclude someone.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:15]: How do I know if a a wire or prototype even make sense?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:19]: I'm imagine you all are thinking about Ar and vr in the different spaces and places that people might think about their internet.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:25]: I mean and if it is really truly nets.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:27]: So that's really, really cool.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:28]: And then the other thing, Natalie, I love that you are all thinking about more than just the product implications of your research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:34]: I think researchers and designers certainly have something to say about the brand, the voice the authenticity of it because for this space, specifically, authenticity is key and attracting the next one hundred million customers.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:47]: A lot of those folks make their decisions not just on product features and feelings of trust, but they also wanna feel like the vibes are good of a place that they like what's behind it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:13:56]: So that's super cool to hear not driven anything than each of you wanna add to that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:00]: Yeah.

Natalie Golub [0:14:00]: I so much to add.

Natalie Golub [0:14:01]: So kind of this like a couple different things.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:14:04]: Please?

Natalie Golub [0:14:05]: One thing I was just thinking about is Sean, when you brought up coming in and kind of having this, like, impostor syndrome German learning about the space.

Natalie Golub [0:14:12]: I too have never worked in Crypto before.

Natalie Golub [0:14:15]: I never worked in anything related to finance.

Natalie Golub [0:14:17]: I had interviewed and as, like, core participants, children and travelers, and even like Q shoppers, but I had never ever worked with builders and developers and specifically, people deep deep in crypto because base is, like the deepest end of crypto.

Natalie Golub [0:14:34]: And also to add, our peers are sometimes the core Twitter chains on Crypto Twitter.

Natalie Golub [0:14:42]: They're, like, twitter the whole space.

Natalie Golub [0:14:44]: So we're not just working with, like, people who know what they're talking about.

Natalie Golub [0:14:47]: We're working with public leaders in the crypto space.

Natalie Golub [0:14:50]: And something that I had to face is getting over this impostor syndrome, And it was a really great lesson for me as a researcher.

Natalie Golub [0:15:00]: I was asked by our, like, kind of engineering to come with him on a panel at Nyu.

Natalie Golub [0:15:05]: It was me and him another engineer, and I thought, oh, my gosh.

Natalie Golub [0:15:09]: My room's gonna find out.

Natalie Golub [0:15:10]: I don't know anything about the technology behind, like, the protocol and all this technical all of its really d technological experience.

Natalie Golub [0:15:20]: I was like, I'm gonna be totally found out.

Natalie Golub [0:15:22]: This is it.

Natalie Golub [0:15:22]: And I realized as I was like, preparing.

Natalie Golub [0:15:25]: I was, like, wait a second.

Natalie Golub [0:15:26]: I know about the motivations, for builders.

Natalie Golub [0:15:29]: I know about their challenges.

Natalie Golub [0:15:31]: I'm not an engineer.

Natalie Golub [0:15:32]: I don't need to know about the deep, like, workings of the technology.

Natalie Golub [0:15:36]: I need to know how to do research, and I can do that.

Natalie Golub [0:15:38]: So then we did the panel.

Natalie Golub [0:15:40]: It went great.

Natalie Golub [0:15:41]: I got asked to do more.

Natalie Golub [0:15:42]: It was a hit to me with a huge lesson in being a researcher, the core skill you need, like, guess you didn't do need to understand the business we were talking about.

Natalie Golub [0:15:52]: But you have to be really confident in your craft.

Natalie Golub [0:15:55]: Mh And then I'm really curious.

Natalie Golub [0:15:56]: And once you can do those things, I think you can research anything.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:16:01]: I love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:16:01]: S, how about for you?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:16:02]: As a designer and is certainly someone who's in leadership thinking about what the future of design research and human centric.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:16:08]: Again, I'm hoping this pivot us into the next phase.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:16:11]: But for you, are you feeling more confident has this unlocked new trajectories in what you thought you might be doing or will do in the future?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:16:17]: Again, I'm not not too far along, but Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:16:20]: I mean, I mentioned this and because I like, I was a casually watching triple front while.

Shalin Pei [0:16:24]: I was casually watching it, twice since like, twenty sixteen.

Shalin Pei [0:16:27]: I have some friends vest, but at that that, back then finally looked around.

Shalin Pei [0:16:31]: Was like, okay.

Shalin Pei [0:16:31]: Think it's still too early.

Shalin Pei [0:16:32]: Might still be a fad.

Shalin Pei [0:16:33]: And then when the Craze took off, I was like, okay.

Shalin Pei [0:16:37]: It's been here long enough that like it or not, it's here to stay.

Shalin Pei [0:16:40]: So I wanna be under the hood to understand how it works.

Shalin Pei [0:16:42]: So I was actually one big freeze why can I do space Just?

Shalin Pei [0:16:45]: It's part of our world.

Shalin Pei [0:16:46]: It's here to stay.

Shalin Pei [0:16:47]: Same with like Ai, it's like, pandora responsible parents here.

Shalin Pei [0:16:50]: You can either turn of bite eye to it and, like, listen to all the fun that might be there there and, like, I think it's on scary that there is some, like, sketchy headlines, or you can actually look at the tech and understand how it works and help shape push it towards like, a positive future.

Shalin Pei [0:17:05]: And I think that's kind mindset it's kinda like, a bit of what, like, what brought me in.

Shalin Pei [0:17:09]: And it just comes from place of curiosity and positivity.

Shalin Pei [0:17:12]: As in like, we kinda know the long scale of, like, innovation.

Shalin Pei [0:17:16]: That there's always this period of that people try to take something through against the wall, people don't try exploit things.

Shalin Pei [0:17:22]: But then I think that if we keep investing into it, and that positive comes out.

Shalin Pei [0:17:26]: So you have to come with this...

Shalin Pei [0:17:28]: That kind of, like, optimism.

Shalin Pei [0:17:29]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:17:30]: You must be like, let me really dig in a hood understand tech.

Shalin Pei [0:17:33]: Let me see.

Shalin Pei [0:17:33]: Let me see the future, And let's push it in that direction.

Shalin Pei [0:17:36]: And I think that curiosity just goes really far.

Shalin Pei [0:17:38]: In a space like this.

Shalin Pei [0:17:40]: I have seen like new grads and interns that are just, like, really good question.

Shalin Pei [0:17:43]: And they have...

Shalin Pei [0:17:45]: They've excel in their careers.

Shalin Pei [0:17:46]: Oh, just by being curious is not been, like, quite honestly not being afraid of, like, what, like, box or label they've been put in.

Shalin Pei [0:17:52]: And I think that gets rewarded a lot in crypto and in merchant tech in general because everyone's asked the same questions.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:17:58]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:17:58]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:17:58]: I think we too often as a community of practice, wait for someone to sort of tap us on the shoulder and say, hey, designer, researcher, thinker.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:04]: Can you help me?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:05]: And so many of our stakeholders and partners don't know what they don't know.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:08]: So what I admire and the two of you is you're describing how you turned this interesting curiosity.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:13]: You reflected it on your skill set, and then, Sean, what you're just saying.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:16]: Like, well, I can help you do that build a better front end or Natalie ask better questions and, like, onboard a user.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:22]: And, again, the many of our Pm and engineering and design stakeholders might not.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:26]: Quite Chilling.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:26]: Cut off.

Shalin Pei [0:18:27]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:18:27]: I'd say like when I first joined Coinbase, Like my team was still part of a larger org.

Shalin Pei [0:18:32]: So I had, like, an existing structure to kinda like, fold and into.

Shalin Pei [0:18:35]: I reported it into design leadership.

Shalin Pei [0:18:37]: I had a design director that could follow, and he was always saying a tone for the org.

Shalin Pei [0:18:41]: In q form this past year, I got Org into base.

Shalin Pei [0:18:44]: And when I joined base, there was no design leadership.

Shalin Pei [0:18:47]: Natalie think was there, and they have, like, two designers, but they reported into product.

Shalin Pei [0:18:51]: And so I was like, the first person that was like design and to establish what design research leadership looks like here.

Shalin Pei [0:18:56]: And I report it to the Vp.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:18:59]: Mh The

Shalin Pei [0:18:59]: thing it comes from an background.

Shalin Pei [0:19:00]: And I remember that first because kinda, like, a little bit they're like, oh my god.

Shalin Pei [0:19:04]: Wait.

Shalin Pei [0:19:04]: I don't report it to a design leader of what do I do.

Shalin Pei [0:19:06]: Sure.

Shalin Pei [0:19:07]: I Was like wait.

Shalin Pei [0:19:08]: I am the design leader.

Shalin Pei [0:19:09]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:19:09]: And I think one thing I was really grateful for is like I've been working long and at that point, I had a lot of, like, experience for but not crypto specific, but I was able to kinda, like, sit there reflect on my career being, like, who are the people Have admired.

Shalin Pei [0:19:21]: What were the specific things that they've done, I think are amazing.

Shalin Pei [0:19:23]: And I basically wrote this doc where weekend.

Shalin Pei [0:19:27]: It's it's called the halloween Doc?

Shalin Pei [0:19:28]: Because I had to, like, talk myself and hide myself into it, but there's a part in it where I was, like, what does a world class design research team look like.

Shalin Pei [0:19:36]: I start like pulling being, like, oh, I have this friend, Jenny Arden.

Shalin Pei [0:19:40]: She's actually a Ceo at I think solo now.

Natalie Golub [0:19:43]: It's zillow.

Natalie Golub [0:19:44]: Hi know Jenny.

Natalie Golub [0:19:45]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:19:46]: Shouts to Jenny.

Shalin Pei [0:19:47]: But she went her on the original self driving car at Google.

Shalin Pei [0:19:50]: When I was walking to search.

Shalin Pei [0:19:51]: I just to invite me to go like Design sprint like, like, I'm not on her team, but she's doing super cutting edge stuff, and just because I friends with her.

Shalin Pei [0:19:58]: She would be like, hey, We need more else outside perspective do on comes sprint with us for a week.

Shalin Pei [0:20:01]: Wow.

Shalin Pei [0:20:01]: So I gotta watch how they would prototype that, like, it was like, twenty twelve or something like that.

Shalin Pei [0:20:05]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:20:06]: So I was like, okay, there's, like some really interesting things from There.

Shalin Pei [0:20:08]: She had idea background.

Shalin Pei [0:20:09]: I learned a bit practice attention from.

Shalin Pei [0:20:11]: I know some people came from Nike.

Shalin Pei [0:20:13]: I was, like, nike this is really good.

Shalin Pei [0:20:15]: Was, like product and marketing combined of how think so larger companies product marketing feel further away, but, like Nike is very good at point to I than having this really cohesive compelling narrative.

Shalin Pei [0:20:23]: Oh, god, there's...

Shalin Pei [0:20:25]: As a pull doc and see what else I wrote.

Shalin Pei [0:20:26]: But to be able to form that vision based off these, like, adjacent experiences and kind pick and shoes from your favorite leaders that you you've like, Admire from the past and then to be able to have have the opportunity to put that from ground up here.

Shalin Pei [0:20:37]: Like, that's what mean now I get did right now.

Shalin Pei [0:20:39]: So I think that's, like, really, really exciting that where you get to define what do we think a world class crypto design music research team looks like and then how manifest it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:20:49]: So that re org this a great transition.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:20:51]: So that re org happens wherein you're moving into base, you recognize.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:20:54]: Hey, Guess who's the design leader.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:20:56]: Was that the moment when I imagine that you met the rest of the team at base and you probably bumped in Natalie and her colleagues.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:03]: Was there a a mission from the Vp vps they're, like, hey, we want design and research working more closely together.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:09]: I get the sense that a lot of the Org at coin base is flat that you all wanna bump into one another digitally so to speak, But taking through the backstory Shy on how you said, like, okay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:18]: I want research and design to work more closely together and then how that led to the...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:22]: In the open structure because that's really what I wanna linger on next.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:25]: So let's start with just sort of the impetus.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:21:26]: What's the Genesis story here?

Shalin Pei [0:21:28]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:21:28]: I think I actually, Jesse Po or Vp.

Shalin Pei [0:21:31]: And I would say, one thing to know is that Coinbase actually runs this Pg structure, So we're already kinda decentralized internally.

Shalin Pei [0:21:37]: There's no, like, head design.

Shalin Pei [0:21:38]: But you have, like, separate Pg they have Pg leads, piece that own run it, run it.

Shalin Pei [0:21:43]: And they basically operate, like, many startups internally.

Shalin Pei [0:21:45]: So basically, like Jesse, they can do what he wants with his org.

Shalin Pei [0:21:49]: And we'd actually create a, a culture that feels quite different from my previous org.

Shalin Pei [0:21:53]: So actually, what Jesse did when I first joined.

Shalin Pei [0:21:56]: He was just like, cool.

Shalin Pei [0:21:58]: Welcome to the team.

Shalin Pei [0:21:59]: I came with a team of designers and, and then he's, like here here's, like, the ones that we had they'll all fold in together under you.

Shalin Pei [0:22:05]: He actually gave me the prompt.

Shalin Pei [0:22:07]: He was like, I want you to think about what you want Design music should look like.

Shalin Pei [0:22:09]: And think about the things that was working your old org that won't work here and it's okay to shed it.

Shalin Pei [0:22:15]: I think that was actually really important for me to hear because it's very easy to take...

Shalin Pei [0:22:19]: Old habits and bring them over

Ben Wiedmaier [0:22:21]: or

Shalin Pei [0:22:21]: try to force it.

Shalin Pei [0:22:22]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:22:22]: For him to give me permission to be, like, reassess out it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:22:25]: Do you

Shalin Pei [0:22:25]: really wanna do that.

Shalin Pei [0:22:26]: And I think there's a lot of things that we were that design research across company that we stand up together, but more through, like, a coalition and kinda like, as a design or if you want to feel like one team one body, but, like, honestly, each of our Have very unique needs.

Shalin Pei [0:22:39]: So there are times, so we actually have a conversation like, how much do we want our existing design system that the whole company is it's versus we should actually invest more in custom components.

Shalin Pei [0:22:48]: And we actually...

Shalin Pei [0:22:50]: We rebranded earlier this year, and a lot of that came from an investment to, like, kind of, build out our own theme on top of our current sign system.

Shalin Pei [0:22:57]: It lets us actually create a more unique, like, look and feel.

Shalin Pei [0:23:00]: Think we had a challenge with the old coinbase based wallet where there's the coinbase based retail app, the coinbase based wallet app.

Shalin Pei [0:23:05]: Mh.

Shalin Pei [0:23:06]: But we had a lot of, like, brand confusion because they they're using similar components it kinda look the same box.

Shalin Pei [0:23:10]: So to be able to make a much more distinct look and feel and, like, Brand was something that, like, I would not have been able to do in the old org.

Shalin Pei [0:23:18]: So, yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:23:19]: I I think that was a big thing.

Shalin Pei [0:23:20]: Like, I think Jesse, he understands the value of design.

Shalin Pei [0:23:23]: He doesn't have the experience to operationalize that everybody knows I can operationalize it.

Shalin Pei [0:23:26]: And he gave me the agency to make those calls and give be the permission.

Shalin Pei [0:23:29]: I think that went really, really far.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:31]: And then what were some of those priorities you might not...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:33]: You don't have to talk about exactly what you Jet under or what you decided not to keep.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:36]: Let's focus on what you did keep?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:37]: What was important?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:38]: Was it the structure?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:39]: Was it a a workflow cadence?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:41]: You know, because lots of folks listening sending you this or...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:43]: Probably thinking about is they head into the new Year?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:45]: What can I do differently to help my design and raise research teams work more effectively, more more collaboratively?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:23:51]: So what was your top three or two that you really wanted to make sure you did?

Shalin Pei [0:23:54]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:23:54]: So it's funny because, as a people manager.

Shalin Pei [0:23:56]: I had a joke where I say, like, your people is the product that you were calling?

Shalin Pei [0:23:59]: Like, all the same skills I use on, like, taking insights and, like, applying them and like iterating...

Shalin Pei [0:24:04]: I just do on the org.

Shalin Pei [0:24:05]: I, basically, like, retro every quarter.

Shalin Pei [0:24:08]: Every three months I'd be like, is this work or not make adjustments.

Shalin Pei [0:24:11]: That's general guidance for everyone.

Shalin Pei [0:24:12]: It's don't let it could still, adjust.

Shalin Pei [0:24:14]: And then I mentioned that our base has a consumer facing side and developer facing side.

Shalin Pei [0:24:18]: And there's a while be shock, bitch it should just be one big design team, like one big sign she wouldn't stand up one cri by let's just make sure we all have eyes.

Shalin Pei [0:24:25]: And then I think we did have for, like, two months and we're like, okay.

Shalin Pei [0:24:28]: Actually, the needs are quite different.

Shalin Pei [0:24:30]: We split into two different minutes.

Shalin Pei [0:24:31]: Sure.

Shalin Pei [0:24:32]: Two different stand ups.

Shalin Pei [0:24:33]: And then we did have for about six months.

Shalin Pei [0:24:34]: The only reason we start merging again.

Shalin Pei [0:24:36]: Because I see...

Shalin Pei [0:24:36]: You could see strategy was starting to make these unified fly.

Shalin Pei [0:24:39]: We also connect both sides.

Shalin Pei [0:24:40]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:24:41]: So I think that's the main thing I would say.

Shalin Pei [0:24:43]: Is just don't be afraid a question what's working.

Shalin Pei [0:24:45]: Don't gather feedback constantly and iterate on it and like, they will evolve.

Shalin Pei [0:24:49]: And then, yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:24:50]: Me and Natalie talk about this constantly.

Shalin Pei [0:24:51]: About how do we keep evolving our process and how we communicate and things like that to be more efficient and more effective.

Shalin Pei [0:24:56]: I talked about product points as well as the same side and like, how we do reviews and like, yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:25:01]: So I'm constantly iterate iterating down the process.

Carol Guest [0:25:05]: Awkward interruption.

Carol Guest [0:25:06]: This episode of Awkward Silences like every episode of Awkward Silences is brought to you by User Interviews.

Erin May [0:25:13]: We know that finding participants for research is hard.

Erin May [0:25:15]: User Interviews is the fastest way to recruit.

Erin May [0:25:18]: Targeted, high quality participants for any kind of research.

Erin May [0:25:21]: We're not a testing platform.

Erin May [0:25:22]: Instead, we're fully focused on making sure you can get just in time insights for your product development, business strategy, marketing, and more.

Carol Guest [0:25:30]: Go to UserInterviews dot com slash awkward to get your first three participants free.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:37]: I love to hear that because I think there's the thing in I'm a content marketing world where you write about best team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:42]: Structures for your research design team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:44]: It's and it'll inevitably end with, like, the hybrid approach is good, but there won't be any tactical and practical descriptions around what that looks like.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:50]: So challenge what you just said we're in, like, we'll go a quarter where we're distinct we're supporting specific partners and then we'll come back.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:25:57]: Even that it's so useful to hear that your team is not like, totally gone bananas.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:26:01]: It sounds like it's working.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:26:03]: There might be external factors.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:26:05]: There might be internal factors.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:26:06]: There might be customer needs.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:26:07]: It sounds like it's not too much of a burden for you to revisit and check back in.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:26:10]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:26:11]: And I think dan Saying like Crypto moves really fast.

Shalin Pei [0:26:13]: Entities changing our strategy is shifting, what you need changes a bit.

Shalin Pei [0:26:17]: I think another example will be like, we work a Pd structure.

Shalin Pei [0:26:19]: So we time to have, like, product inches sinus for the Trio that means different pods.

Shalin Pei [0:26:23]: And then there was a point in time where I was like, okay.

Shalin Pei [0:26:27]: We're starting to ship an Org.

Shalin Pei [0:26:28]: I'm starting to see some errors in our app experience I kinda just starting to get fragmented.

Shalin Pei [0:26:33]: So then I centralized design.

Shalin Pei [0:26:34]: I mean, there's a few reasons why centralized design, but it was like, cool.

Shalin Pei [0:26:37]: Everyone has to go through me and then, like, I will assign designers.

Shalin Pei [0:26:40]: Two areas where they can be connective tissue.

Shalin Pei [0:26:42]: And it it's just one of those things where, like, maybe, like a few weeks after that.

Shalin Pei [0:26:46]: Other things or whites happen.

Shalin Pei [0:26:47]: I was like I'm just so glad to that in advance.

Shalin Pei [0:26:49]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:26:49]: I think just...

Shalin Pei [0:26:50]: If I think changes okay and change good.

Shalin Pei [0:26:52]: It helps to adapt.

Shalin Pei [0:26:53]: I think the skill that you learned as a leader is how to manage a change management.

Shalin Pei [0:26:56]: If you explain people why happy to have my expectations, so it doesn't feel like churn.

Shalin Pei [0:27:00]: But was, like, yes that makes sense.

Shalin Pei [0:27:01]: Thank you.

Shalin Pei [0:27:02]: That would make night my life, more busy.

Shalin Pei [0:27:04]: That's like a good outcome.

Shalin Pei [0:27:05]: So I think we kind about that culture where people know that it will constantly change.

Shalin Pei [0:27:08]: But we just manage a communication of the best of every we can so I land positively.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:13]: Natalie, move, big reveal.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:14]: How is it going?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:15]: I mean, you you had Shelling come in.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:17]: You were already on base or maybe part of the re org, but, you know, a lot of folks here are...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:22]: I see practitioners, they're researchers who may be operating in an agency model where they've got a big list tickets or they're responding to an embedded product team.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:29]: Talk a little bit about your week.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:31]: What's a standard sprint for you.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:33]: Are you, you know, you you talked about doing presentations.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:35]: You're doing marketing collaborations, do you support a specific part of base?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:27:39]: Walk us through a sort of day or week in the life of being a researcher at at base or on base?

Natalie Golub [0:27:44]: Sure.

Natalie Golub [0:27:44]: Well, I always love...

Natalie Golub [0:27:46]: I love research being part of design.

Natalie Golub [0:27:48]: I feel like it adds...

Natalie Golub [0:27:49]: When research goes out into the org, it ads if we have, like, this extra arm that are there to be kind of our our advocates in the room.

Natalie Golub [0:27:58]: And so I always really appreciate having being part of a design team and having direct designers that we can always lean on.

Natalie Golub [0:28:05]: I think it always helps push our work further.

Natalie Golub [0:28:08]: Day the week.

Natalie Golub [0:28:09]: Okay.

Natalie Golub [0:28:09]: So we're a team of free, and I'm am truly so impressed by our team on how fast.

Natalie Golub [0:28:16]: We operate as researchers, Here, I'll just give you an example.

Natalie Golub [0:28:20]: I'll tell you about a week that's going on right now.

Natalie Golub [0:28:22]: So the team that is launching this really big app of called the base app.

Natalie Golub [0:28:27]: They are in an in person sprint right now for a whole week in San Francisco.

Natalie Golub [0:28:33]: So tip researchers are there.

Natalie Golub [0:28:35]: And they are in the room with designers, while they're, like, iterating on some of their designs, like, getting it closer and closer for the big big launch, the researchers are in the room just to make sure that their findings are going to be put into the product.

Natalie Golub [0:28:51]: Wow.

Natalie Golub [0:28:51]: Home So it's really cool.

Natalie Golub [0:28:53]: So they're just...

Natalie Golub [0:28:54]: They're working as advisors and advocates for the users, like, bright their live on the spot, and they're there the designers are asking questions.

Natalie Golub [0:29:01]: They're getting direct feedback based on research.

Natalie Golub [0:29:03]: And in that process, P, an amazing researcher.

Natalie Golub [0:29:07]: She noticed a question that kept coming up.

Natalie Golub [0:29:09]: So she...

Natalie Golub [0:29:10]: This was yesterday, Tuesday, she put together a study that's gonna happen tomorrow, and she's gonna give, run the study tomorrow and then have the findings by the end of the day.

Natalie Golub [0:29:19]: So that way the team can iterate and include them on Friday.

Natalie Golub [0:29:23]: So that's an example of just, like how fast and scrappy we are.

Natalie Golub [0:29:26]: And afterwards, I'm like, yeah.

Natalie Golub [0:29:28]: Why did it used to take free weeks?

Shalin Pei [0:29:30]: Ago?

Shalin Pei [0:29:30]: I was

Ben Wiedmaier [0:29:31]: just thinking the same thing I, why wouldn't a team that claims to be customer centric and responsive to feedback do what you just described?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:29:38]: You have someone from Sc team designing, working on the end thing?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:29:41]: There's a researcher who's either been in session, has desk research or some combination of there and to say, like, actually, I've got some data that shows this, a responsive open a designers like, cool.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:29:52]: I can put that to practice and it's better for the end user and the business in general.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:29:56]: I I mean, is it that your stakeholders and the partners are more open, S...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:01]: Because, again, there are some product folks that are simply looking for validation research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:04]: They kinda know what they're gonna build and they wanna build that thing and research can often be a launch blocker.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:08]: Natalie, what you just described sounds certainly in in part that, like, Coinbase is being responsive and really innovative.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:14]: Can you talk S from the leadership.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:16]: Is that something that is, like, at at the base of Pun intended of Coinbase?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:20]: And what's happening is engineering product, marketing, it sounds like folks are interested in research and design as a practice.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:26]: As something that forwards the business.

Shalin Pei [0:30:28]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:30:28]: I definitely think there's appetite for it.

Shalin Pei [0:30:30]: I also feel like, while I say it's, like Pet lab that's a our, like, format, It does me like, design, I to see a table and decide a research kinda of joy of the hip.

Shalin Pei [0:30:38]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:30:38]: So it kinda comes along that way.

Shalin Pei [0:30:40]: The other thing that I do is, like, I think there's actually a lot of blurring of roles.

Shalin Pei [0:30:46]: I think that's a positive thing.

Shalin Pei [0:30:48]: I personally have never been a person who's, like, design center design box.

Shalin Pei [0:30:51]: I'm not the person who's gonna be like, I'm going go away into my, like, design tower.

Shalin Pei [0:30:55]: It collaborative prototypes.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:30:57]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:30:57]: Always been a very, like, hands on in track of collaborative tech designer.

Shalin Pei [0:31:00]: And I actually support this forever.

Shalin Pei [0:31:02]: Like, I do a little bit coding back in the day.

Shalin Pei [0:31:04]: I mean remember we're at Google.

Shalin Pei [0:31:05]: There was this point where I wandered into a room with a bunch of Pms searching drinking gears.

Shalin Pei [0:31:09]: Apparently like they were all pulling their own sequel queries to actually, like, pull the data.

Shalin Pei [0:31:12]: And I was like.

Shalin Pei [0:31:13]: I'm so curious to teach me.

Shalin Pei [0:31:14]: I see that a lot in general.

Shalin Pei [0:31:16]: I see our researchers do more than with actually consequently research.

Shalin Pei [0:31:19]: But, like, Everyone's just, like, we just wanna win.

Shalin Pei [0:31:21]: Everyone do whatever it takes to win.

Shalin Pei [0:31:22]: I've seen Pms, like, jump to Fig and make mocks when, like, design is thin.

Shalin Pei [0:31:27]: I've always been like, you know what?

Shalin Pei [0:31:28]: Supportive of it.

Shalin Pei [0:31:29]: Just make sure it goes through credits, we have eyes on it go through a normal process, but just because you don't have a designer I your title, Not mean you can't design.

Shalin Pei [0:31:34]: You have good idea.

Shalin Pei [0:31:35]: Share it.

Shalin Pei [0:31:36]: It's such just a dwarf communication, but I see, like product edge design research.

Shalin Pei [0:31:40]: I see it all blur quite a bit.

Shalin Pei [0:31:42]: I everyone's just generally multifaceted and curious humans who want to solve big problems together.

Shalin Pei [0:31:47]: So I think that kind of add to it just display like a really healthy foundation.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:52]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:52]: And you alluded to or or mentioned Ai earlier and that's.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:55]: Something that some researchers and and certainly designers as signals was like, don't worry.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:31:58]: Anyone can quote unquote design, the verb in the noun, Natalie as someone who is doing both, You're researching and your researcher, does the scrap and the something openness of your colleagues to get involved.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:10]: Does that mean that you have more space to use your expertise in areas you really like.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:15]: Where do you find yourself?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:16]: Because when I hear scrap, I think like, okay, you've gotta be really strict prioritization and really careful and considered in your time?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:23]: Where are you really deploying those research skills as a research expert and empowering your colleagues to make use of research to help them and their work be better.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:31]: If that makes sense.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:32]: I don't know if that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:32]: Yeah.

Natalie Golub [0:32:33]: Totally.

Natalie Golub [0:32:33]: Okay.

Natalie Golub [0:32:34]: I think the biggest way our research team?

Natalie Golub [0:32:37]: Uses our skills in a scrappy way is influenced.

Natalie Golub [0:32:41]: So I think that's, like, kind of a a part of research that kinda gets forgotten.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:32:45]: Yes.

Natalie Golub [0:32:46]: And what I mean by that is our team base is truly, like, I actually haven't ever had this in most any other place I've worked is obsessed with talking to people.

Natalie Golub [0:32:57]: So there is absolutely, like, research never needs to fight to be heard because everyone wants to know what do our users what do our builders say.

Natalie Golub [0:33:05]: So what that means is everyone truly is talking to users in all different ways.

Natalie Golub [0:33:11]: So a lot of us are really deeply embedded in the builder community, going to, like, meet a from their own.

Natalie Golub [0:33:15]: I mean, there truly people are part of this space going conferences, people are active on Twitter collecting feedback that way, and people are trying to onboard everyone that they know.

Natalie Golub [0:33:25]: The interesting, I think balance that research has to play there is because everybody is talking to everybody It's such a core part of our culture.

Natalie Golub [0:33:34]: Is that we need to make sure that the outliers aren't just being heard.

Natalie Golub [0:33:39]: And the the importance of research, I think is even sometimes more important because we need to demonstrate like, we are asking specific questions and we're using methods that make sure that our what we're saying is reliable and can be replicated.

Natalie Golub [0:33:53]: We're making sure that the quality of our insights are we can really back it and that we really trust the recommendations that we're giving.

Natalie Golub [0:34:00]: So when everyone's kinda talking to everyone, it's so important for research to be heard.

Natalie Golub [0:34:05]: And so the ways that we've done that as a team, I think one way that I really love is that we have brought in person research back.

Natalie Golub [0:34:13]: And that's something that it's, like, the oldest methodology.

Natalie Golub [0:34:17]: But to me, I really even used to think of it as a methodology.

Natalie Golub [0:34:20]: Now it's me, it's, like, the new thing that I just, like, love bringing back.

Natalie Golub [0:34:24]: We do that because we find that when our stakeholders actually see...

Natalie Golub [0:34:30]: They're not just asking the normal questions if they ask people.

Natalie Golub [0:34:33]: They're not just listening to the loudest person on x.

Natalie Golub [0:34:36]: They see our participants who we've curated based on the research study, they see how they're going through the product.

Natalie Golub [0:34:43]: They can hear it so much better.

Natalie Golub [0:34:45]: So we do that.

Natalie Golub [0:34:46]: We're we're low company, but we've been doing that as much as possible whenever we have an off, say, whenever there's is one of these in person sprints and conferences, even, like, wouldn't we'll...

Natalie Golub [0:34:56]: When we know our team is gonna be there, we use as as an opportunity to hold focus groups or some kind of research session where our team can absorb.

Natalie Golub [0:35:03]: So that's been my favorite methodology could bring back, and I'm a big proponent.

Natalie Golub [0:35:09]: And I think to me, it's a great way to help the research be heard.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:14]: Yes.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:14]: Yes.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:14]: I I know that for some research or for some remote and hybrid companies that physical, but also that cognitive dissonance or distance from the user or the customer can sometimes feel like, an an impediment or a hurdle from really building and shipping that great thing that doesn't need a ton of rework or doesn't bump into market fit that could have been revealed with a a couple of focus groups with the engine product and I don't wanna pick on those folks.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:38]: But, you know, the builders internally can sometimes just say like, oh, if we did that, I think that would happen again and again.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:44]: In all of this scrap and the flex and the hybrid, how are you all thinking, S, maybe this is a question for you.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:35:51]: How are you thinking about documentation, the the collection and the archiving of all the great work that's happening because I'm also hearing from a lot of research leaders, in particular they're thinking about, like, okay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:02]: My team is doing great work.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:04]: We're helping make the business hit its goals.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:06]: How do we sort of repository all of that, make it a library so that new people can come in and kinda get a download on what has been happening or someone who has a question can answer it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:17]: How are you thinking about sort of storing and collecting all the great stuff your team is doing.

Shalin Pei [0:36:21]: Quite honestly and I'm not great at it.

Shalin Pei [0:36:22]: And it's interesting because I think this industry moves so fast things go scale really quickly.

Shalin Pei [0:36:28]: Like, I remember when I first joined my friend who joined, like, three months before me.

Shalin Pei [0:36:32]: He had a onboarding gun.

Shalin Pei [0:36:33]: He's like, here's what I did, like, onboard me to this space.

Shalin Pei [0:36:36]: But how me gave it to me?

Shalin Pei [0:36:37]: Half of it was still relevant.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:36:39]: Wow.

Shalin Pei [0:36:40]: And then by the time that, I like I like, think I, like, update doesn't and maintain it and then a friend joined six three months later I'm like, oh, sorry This is I completely odd date.

Shalin Pei [0:36:46]: Wow.

Shalin Pei [0:36:46]: So I think that the product innovation is happening that fast.

Shalin Pei [0:36:49]: I think the research repository, like, I can speak more towards it, but it's kind of fascinating because that I see people kinda do late reviews.

Shalin Pei [0:36:56]: And, like, there's always a blend of business this lip review still relevant stories of worth doing something that new because it's already changed enough.

Shalin Pei [0:37:01]: So, yeah, it's quite honestly, like, I don't have a good method for it, but I'm also kind of Tb on how much we need a good method for it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:10]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:10]: Well, then how about when you're doing the upward influence that I'm confident you do or the cross horizontal.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:15]: When you meet with your other leaders in product or end.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:18]: Are they asking questions about your team's work or how are you framing that work?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:22]: Because that's another conversation.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:23]: Sometimes leaders are like, well, we, you know, that button was really good or that delightful experience.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:27]: We spread that throughout the experience?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:29]: Talk us through those conversations.

Shalin Pei [0:37:32]: So we do planning on an annual cycle and a quarterly cycle.

Shalin Pei [0:37:34]: And Imo always been a very big proponent of you needing align your goals with how company structures they're planning.

Shalin Pei [0:37:41]: And I don't also think that a lot of tech companies.

Shalin Pei [0:37:43]: They tend to plan with the end first mindset.

Shalin Pei [0:37:45]: It's like that's what's actually gonna get shipped.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:37:48]: Right.

Shalin Pei [0:37:48]: So prioritization cut lines get based on like, how many engineers are available.

Shalin Pei [0:37:51]: But then nyc see happen is, like, things that do take up capacity of time and our influential don't actually get documented.

Shalin Pei [0:37:58]: So I've always the a big component of we sign for.

Shalin Pei [0:38:02]: Like, designing reach, we have our own O ours.

Shalin Pei [0:38:04]: Whether it gets folded into the top of O cares or it's happening up at your, like, team level, it's, like, Tb based on, like, what the strategies is moment, or even if it's just do it for ourselves and just never gets published anywhere.

Shalin Pei [0:38:14]: It's still a good exercise to be snapping to that.

Shalin Pei [0:38:16]: And there'll be moments in time where there's something you'll really wanna fight for make sure it's, like, aligned on and actually documented like scored against.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:38:24]: Sure.

Shalin Pei [0:38:24]: We did a big re brand I got launched in July, and we actually had...

Shalin Pei [0:38:28]: That we had quality goals So there was like, execution calls where which trip design owned O, and then there was a quality measurement goal that was space owned.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:38:38]: Oh, cool.

Shalin Pei [0:38:39]: And those were actually, like, I advocate them become top line for our team, not for the Org before our team.

Shalin Pei [0:38:43]: So it was actually documented tracked against right alongside all your product and edge own O okay.

Shalin Pei [0:38:47]: Wow.

Shalin Pei [0:38:47]: But, yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:38:48]: I think that top down level signaling of We where Pet, let's be Pid then.

Shalin Pei [0:38:53]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:38:53]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:38:54]: We have things that we individually have to be designed and research led that we are going to own to make sure that everything successful.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:00]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:00]: I think that is another greg killing Challenge with this, like, again, tactical and fractal, that's the seat at the table.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:06]: For my, like, sure.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:07]: I mean, if you're in the meeting room and you're advocating for it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:09]: But in terms of what the business reflects on and what leadership looks at.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:12]: It's that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:13]: It's the o k r retro.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:15]: Did we hit, you know, were we zero to one.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:17]: If you have a line there, that's your representation.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:20]: I know it doesn't feel like very much because it could just be one k or one o, but that's yours.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:26]: And so I'm kudos to you for doing that?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:28]: Because then your team, Natalie can look at that and say, how are we working toward that against that?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:33]: And I think that builds a cohesion which can also kind of fight some of that m that experienced teams can sometimes feel like, what are we doing?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:39:39]: How does what we do impact this?

Shalin Pei [0:39:42]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:39:42]: I was not fascinating because I think people are, it's like, oh, the Pm on the Okay.

Shalin Pei [0:39:45]: And so, like, they you'll feel like that permission Right I'm like, what's the worst gonna happen?

Shalin Pei [0:39:49]: You have edit access to the doc.

Shalin Pei [0:39:50]: Right align in.

Shalin Pei [0:39:51]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:39:52]: Worst thing is supposed to delete it.

Shalin Pei [0:39:53]: I don't.

Shalin Pei [0:39:54]: By at least you're putting your stake out there, what you care about, and then you're not interfere else else's this goes, but that gives you something for accountability.

Shalin Pei [0:40:00]: If you know you're can get scored against it at the end quarter, then you're gonna be a accountable to actually completing it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:05]: Yes.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:05]: And then there's clarity there.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:07]: Natalie, you you talked about in person research, and I love that that's still...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:10]: I mean, it's weird not being that old but they're like, yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:13]: That's just research.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:14]: You know, like, being in a focus group, rumor or observing someone in a in an aisle or being in home with them.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:19]: How else has your research practice changed working as closely as your team does with designers in that Pe so or or in that structure?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:28]: You talked about scrap?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:40:29]: Is there another example you might share and how you've evolved or adapted your practice to be influential in and responsive to this structure and the the folks you're working closely with?

Natalie Golub [0:40:39]: Yeah.

Natalie Golub [0:40:39]: Okay.

Natalie Golub [0:40:39]: So this, I think some research with might have different views on this, and my views have changed on this over time.

Natalie Golub [0:40:45]: So something that we have done a lot of coinbase in general and in the beginnings of base with something called partner Led research.

Natalie Golub [0:40:53]: So we kinda named that as as, like, a research team.

Natalie Golub [0:40:57]: And what it means is we are so stressed thin.

Natalie Golub [0:41:00]: So if you have a research request, and we can't get to it.

Natalie Golub [0:41:03]: Maybe you could do it yourself and we'll help you.

Natalie Golub [0:41:05]: At first when I heard this, I was like, oh, my gosh.

Natalie Golub [0:41:08]: I'm just like letting people just do their own research, which I'm sure a lot of other researchers have kind of been, like, trained to feel.

Natalie Golub [0:41:15]: And then, of course, there's kind of risk in that.

Natalie Golub [0:41:18]: Right?

Natalie Golub [0:41:19]: Maybe how do you know that they're gonna ask the right questions?

Natalie Golub [0:41:22]: How do you know they're gonna be right methodology?

Natalie Golub [0:41:24]: How do you know they're gonna make the right synthesis and insights and it's not totally biased on something that they want it to be?

Natalie Golub [0:41:30]: But ultimately, I came to the belief that when our team wants to talk to our users and they want insights that research should be an enabler.

Natalie Golub [0:41:42]: So that's been a lot of the designers on the team have taking advantage of that.

Natalie Golub [0:41:45]: So it's something that some designers will come, and they'll say, I have just big research question and we'll help them figure out what the methodology should be, we'll help them even recruit.

Natalie Golub [0:41:56]: We'll help them figure out the tools.

Natalie Golub [0:41:58]: And then...

Natalie Golub [0:41:59]: But they do it.

Natalie Golub [0:42:00]: They lead it.

Natalie Golub [0:42:01]: And we'll go over their synthesis with them before they kind of jira.

Natalie Golub [0:42:06]: But ultimately, it's theirs.

Natalie Golub [0:42:08]: And I think that's a really nice way to make...

Natalie Golub [0:42:12]: Ultimately come to this belief that research really should be for everyone that we shouldn't be gatekeepers to it, and we should just be helping people find the best way to collect feedback.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:22]: Does that leave you?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:22]: I mean, you alluded to, but that probably leaves you and your team to do the the more challenging or the more requiring research specific expertise kinds of questions, the idea mediation sessions or the generative sessions or the in person.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:34]: You know, it's hard to moderate a focus group.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:36]: And so is that one of the outcomes of that kind of a project or program?

Natalie Golub [0:42:40]: Exactly if, you know, we have a bunch of different research press and priorities to balance, the most likely partner led research wouldn't end up being something that's are on the usability side or something on the un unregulated side.

Natalie Golub [0:42:51]: Which would free us up to do more strategic work?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:55]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:55]: Shaun, is that kind of the...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:56]: I'm asking you to paint with a broad brush here.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:42:58]: But, you know, lots of the folks listening are building their own teams that might be founders who are thinking about how to deploy resources for their design, research and product, you've been at lots of different places who have built and shipped lots of interesting products and experiences?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:13]: Take me to twenty twenty seven and beyond.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:16]: What's the future of design and research working in these omni channel product experiences.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:21]: Is it this hybrid Pet model?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:43:25]: Is it this self service model, Walk us through some of your preferences and sort of what you think given both the places you've been, where you are now and where you think it's going?

Shalin Pei [0:43:33]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:43:33]: So I tend to think of impacts as, like, execution impact on strategic impact.

Shalin Pei [0:43:38]: And I think, like, at the rate that we run, we end up focusing a lot impact because, like, it's immediate short term we're pivoting, we're very nimble.

Shalin Pei [0:43:46]: And I think sometimes that puts us in the position where ended kind of being of reactive.

Shalin Pei [0:43:51]: And your...

Shalin Pei [0:43:52]: It's hard to, like, lift your head up, actually think long term.

Shalin Pei [0:43:54]: However, if you sit in sessions with our Ceo, he is looking like ten years beyond and down the line.

Shalin Pei [0:44:00]: Right.

Shalin Pei [0:44:01]: So I was like, how do we find the way to balance those?

Shalin Pei [0:44:04]: Like, you do wanna make sure the team as well port and you can...

Shalin Pei [0:44:06]: And, like, we are scrappy and just industry moves and you pivot really, really quickly.

Shalin Pei [0:44:09]: But at the same time, there are these really large macro questions that are unknowns.

Shalin Pei [0:44:14]: And, like, how can we put research in place where they actually get ahead of that, get ahead of our, like, twenty ways expanding.

Shalin Pei [0:44:21]: I mean, the dream as well for designed be ahead of edge and then for research should be ahead of that.

Shalin Pei [0:44:25]: It's very hard for to do that.

Shalin Pei [0:44:27]: But...

Shalin Pei [0:44:27]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:44:27]: I think that that's kind of where I wanna figure out how we can shift our energy towards.

Shalin Pei [0:44:30]: It have research asking the questions that, no one even knows to ask yet.

Shalin Pei [0:44:34]: I do think with, like, how thin research is here.

Shalin Pei [0:44:37]: It means if I get really creative to make sure the day to day and, like, the more execution impact is well supported it.

Shalin Pei [0:44:42]: So I think that's the area where it's like, the self sort of models, especially because we have people who are so excited to...

Shalin Pei [0:44:48]: Who are so excited for it.

Shalin Pei [0:44:49]: Like, you have the appetite for it.

Shalin Pei [0:44:51]: Let's give you the tools.

Shalin Pei [0:44:51]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:44:52]: We run be free.

Shalin Pei [0:44:53]: It's also an area that, like me and an natalie have like, look at get, like, what can Ai automate?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:58]: Right.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:44:58]: It's

Shalin Pei [0:44:58]: really really nice in the same thing.

Shalin Pei [0:45:00]: Ai changes every six months, three months, whatever, and there is a world where.

Shalin Pei [0:45:04]: I've seen someone on Cripple Twitter saying that they were, like, built, like, a little Agent that can, basically automate usability.

Shalin Pei [0:45:09]: Testing have like, really I don't believe it really works yet, but that is an interesting threat to pull on.

Shalin Pei [0:45:14]: And is actually interesting.

Shalin Pei [0:45:15]: We hired a super builder.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:18]: What's that?

Shalin Pei [0:45:19]: We have one engineer whose full time job is to figure out how to, like, super charge workflows of Ai.

Shalin Pei [0:45:24]: Wow.

Shalin Pei [0:45:24]: He started out much more, like the end efficiency angle.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:28]: Sure Sure.

Shalin Pei [0:45:29]: He's been kind of, like, fine, like, oliver of our are all on cursor.

Shalin Pei [0:45:31]: They...

Shalin Pei [0:45:32]: I think the team has shrink half not lost any state.

Shalin Pei [0:45:35]: It's kinda like, shopping.

Shalin Pei [0:45:35]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:45:36]: And he's been building some internal tools, some that will actually, like, you have, like a really good linear ticket, It can automate the P, and then Just has to kinda, like, review and make sure it works, and we've been fine the format for that.

Shalin Pei [0:45:46]: But then you start expanding to be, like, design polish.

Shalin Pei [0:45:49]: All those, like, p two tasks I'd, like, never get handled.

Shalin Pei [0:45:51]: Mh.

Shalin Pei [0:45:51]: Because Here's just write a really good ticket just because automate automated Yes.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:55]: The paper cuts.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:45:55]: Yeah.

Shalin Pei [0:45:56]: So, like, we're starting here, but I am actually looking a lot.

Shalin Pei [0:45:59]: I've I've asked them to do expression be, like, how feasible is this crazy idea.

Shalin Pei [0:46:02]: How would that crazy idea.

Shalin Pei [0:46:04]: So I think may not I have been kinda, like, yeah, like, what are some areas that Ai could benefit research and, like, One is, like, how is the industry evolving, are there off the shelf tools that we can use on get that done?

Shalin Pei [0:46:14]: And then also it's like, if we have access to super builder, we we have him investigate to be, like, what can we automate?

Shalin Pei [0:46:20]: It's all very nascent and all very, like, early, but those are kind of things that we're excited by so that we'll free up our research team actually do the, like, macro big picture thinking.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:31]: But even that decision to bring in someone with the expertise of the technology and hopefully now much more awareness of the business and how the teams work to make those calls and to prioritize those things.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:42]: As opposed to just...

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:42]: Okay.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:43]: We bought a bunch of I Ai tools be better everyone where that just feels like, well, they're gonna replace me or this that's so much more so much more thoughtful.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:46:50]: I I gotta imagine that as a leader that itself will have a super builder, cool name Shout the super builder.

Shalin Pei [0:46:55]: Chad Tie who is instructor that, like, Advocate for and hired.

Shalin Pei [0:46:58]: This was basically building that whole trace out.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:01]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:01]: Alright, Natalie.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:02]: Quick version of this.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:03]: There's, again, a lot of people also who are transitioning into or are new in the design and specifically the research space.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:10]: Can you give me stop start continue for folks who are trying to get there first or their next research job.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:15]: What should they stop start and continue from your Po.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:19]: You've been in a couple of different places?

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:20]: You're know now at Coinbase based grinding.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:22]: What should we stop start and continue as research professionals?

Natalie Golub [0:47:26]: Okay.

Natalie Golub [0:47:26]: Great question.

Natalie Golub [0:47:26]: This is gonna be as we've say Coinbase spicy take.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:30]: Yes.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:47:30]: We're here for him.

Natalie Golub [0:47:31]: Okay.

Natalie Golub [0:47:31]: So I think thinking a lot about, obviously, we all are about Ai inner our work.

Natalie Golub [0:47:37]: And something I've come to think about is kind of the opposite of, like, we all think about helping can we use Where Ai, but I've been thinking a lot about what human strengths do these as researchers, have that we should be doubling down on if we can use Ai per thing.

Natalie Golub [0:47:55]: So what are our unique human strengths as researchers.

Natalie Golub [0:47:58]: And I think to me, I'm sure a lot of listeners will

Shalin Pei [0:48:03]: have a lot

Natalie Golub [0:48:03]: of good additions.

Natalie Golub [0:48:04]: They are being authentic and genuine, having someone be able to talk to, biting into, like, a real orange is obviously always way better than than, like, a fake orange juice.

Natalie Golub [0:48:15]: So I think that's always gonna be true with humans.

Natalie Golub [0:48:17]: It's gonna be influence as we've talked about.

Natalie Golub [0:48:20]: And and it's gonna be asking right questions.

Natalie Golub [0:48:23]: And I think those are three human strengths as researchers, authenticity, and connections, influence and asking right questions.

Natalie Golub [0:48:32]: And so to me as a researcher now, I wanna really double down my strengths in those areas because I'm hoping that Ai will be able to use Ai in a place where I don't to worry about recruiting and.

Natalie Golub [0:48:46]: Yeah.

Natalie Golub [0:48:47]: I don't have to even even some...

Natalie Golub [0:48:49]: This is the spicy take part.

Natalie Golub [0:48:51]: Even some of our methodologies will be automated, and we'll be able just to, like, plug things in, and other people will be able to do it.

Natalie Golub [0:48:58]: But our shrinks since researchers are gonna be the right questions and connection and influence.

Natalie Golub [0:49:02]: So those are areas I really wanna work on personally on, like, what we were talking about earlier.

Natalie Golub [0:49:06]: How do we make sure our research is heard?

Natalie Golub [0:49:08]: How do you make sure you bring the team along?

Natalie Golub [0:49:10]: How do you ask the right questions?

Natalie Golub [0:49:11]: How do you know as S just said, how do you ask questions that people don't even know but they should be.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:49:18]: Yeah.

Natalie Golub [0:49:19]: So I think those are what researchers should focus on.

Natalie Golub [0:49:24]: And if I were starting out in my career now, I would just be some good advice I heard from a good research friend ones.

Natalie Golub [0:49:31]: Was if you wanna get into research and you're not.

Natalie Golub [0:49:34]: Just start researching at your company.

Natalie Golub [0:49:36]: Just start doing it start being curious start doing it on your own because it's such a hard field to break into.

Natalie Golub [0:49:41]: So sometimes that's the way to do it if you're already have a start to your career, but not as a researcher.

Natalie Golub [0:49:47]: And it all starts with curiosity.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:49:49]: Love that.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:49:50]: She, anything to add?

Shalin Pei [0:49:51]: I would agree with that.

Shalin Pei [0:49:52]: I think it all sorts of curiosity.

Shalin Pei [0:49:53]: And I do hope Of mentoring outside of work for, like, if I of watching how the industry is in this current recession.

Shalin Pei [0:49:59]: The job market is really, really hard.

Shalin Pei [0:50:01]: And then, like, quite honestly say Ais out of the box.

Shalin Pei [0:50:03]: It's a new lot of things.

Shalin Pei [0:50:04]: I think number one thing I've been telling people is you can't stop learning.

Shalin Pei [0:50:09]: I see some people who have gone to a point where they're, like, they were laid off.

Shalin Pei [0:50:12]: Right?

Shalin Pei [0:50:12]: And then they've had, like, a long drought of struggling at.

Shalin Pei [0:50:16]: Hiring.

Shalin Pei [0:50:16]: But you look at the portfolio in the portfolio is, like, frozen time for when they got laid off.

Shalin Pei [0:50:20]: Mh But the industry is still evolving.

Shalin Pei [0:50:22]: Their copying.

Shalin Pei [0:50:23]: There's new tools.

Shalin Pei [0:50:24]: And I see the people that are just, like, Cool.

Shalin Pei [0:50:29]: I don't have a full time job, but I'm still learning Let me talk about that.

Shalin Pei [0:50:32]: Let me tweet about this thing that I learned this new tool I tinker it with.

Shalin Pei [0:50:35]: I actually think it's really important during this specific period in time to make sure you're you're constantly up skill because it's just changing a lot right now.

Shalin Pei [0:50:42]: And, like, quite frankly, I stop us for myself.

Shalin Pei [0:50:44]: I've been designed leadership for a long time.

Shalin Pei [0:50:46]: And I kinda feel like the industries moving in a way where I need to go take on a personal project to just get my hands dirty again.

Shalin Pei [0:50:54]: Sure because it's changing enough, and like, I don't want be to connect too disconnected for where the industry is.

Shalin Pei [0:50:59]: So I would say that's the big thing.

Shalin Pei [0:51:01]: Like, stay curious, stay hungry, don't get complacent, and keep learning.

Shalin Pei [0:51:05]: Never stop learning, and do it openly.

Shalin Pei [0:51:08]: Do it publicly, let people know.

Shalin Pei [0:51:10]: Constructive conversation.

Shalin Pei [0:51:11]: We're all figuring out together.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:13]: I appreciate that, and it's efficacious.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:14]: We can all do it.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:15]: So no matter if you're a junior researcher, a design leader or maybe a a founder.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:19]: Yeah.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:20]: You can take much of what S and Natalie are saying and put it to use.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:22]: Thank you so very much for the time y'all.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:25]: Follow these folks on Linkedin certainly stay close to Coinbase Basin base because there sounds like some really interesting things coming.

Ben Wiedmaier [0:51:31]: Thank you again for the time, S in Natalie.

Shalin Pei [0:51:33]: Thank you much for having us.

Shalin Pei [0:51:34]: Thank you.

Carol Guest [0:51:42]: Thanks for listening to Awkward Silences brought to you by User Interviews.

Carol Guest [0:51:45]: Theme music by fragile gang.

Carol Guest [0:51:47]: Hi there Awkward Silences is listener.

Carol Guest [0:51:59]: Thanks for listening.

Carol Guest [0:52:00]: If you like what you heard, we always appreciate a rating or review on your podcast app of choice.

Erin May [0:52:07]: We'd also love to hear from you with feedback, guest topics or ideas.

Erin May [0:52:10]: So that we can improve your podcast listening experience.

Erin May [0:52:13]: We're running a quick survey

Erin May [0:52:14]: so you can share your thoughts

Erin May [0:52:15]: on what

Erin May [0:52:16]: you like about the show, which episodes you like best?

Erin May [0:52:18]: Which subjects you like to hear more about, which stuff you're sick of and more just about you?

Erin May [0:52:22]: The fans I've kept us on the air for the past five years.

Carol Guest [0:52:26]: We know surveys usually suck.

Carol Guest [0:52:27]: See episode twenty one with Erica alcohol for more on that.

Carol Guest [0:52:30]: But this one's quick and useful fully promised.

Carol Guest [0:52:33]: Thanks for helping us make this the best podcast it can be.

Carol Guest [0:52:36]: You can find the survey link in the episode description of any episode or head on over to User Interviews dot com slash awkward

Carol Guest [0:52:43]: survey.