Andrew Hogan [00:00:00]:
The information environment and attention that we.

Andrew Hogan [00:00:02]:
Work in at work is not dissimilar.

Andrew Hogan [00:00:04]:
From the one that is outside of that. And so if the creator economy is a big deal in other places, and being a creator is a big deal.

Andrew Hogan [00:00:11]:
In other places, being a creator and.

Andrew Hogan [00:00:14]:
Having specific topics and new interesting ways.

Andrew Hogan [00:00:17]:
Of putting your work in the world becomes more important inside of a company. Just to gather some more attention and.

Andrew Hogan [00:00:24]:
Just to build a little bit of influence.

Erin May [00:00:29]:
Hey, this is Erin May.

Carol Guest [00:00:30]:
And this is Carol Guest.

Erin May [00:00:32]:
And this is Awkward Silences.

Erin May [00:00:36]:
Awkward Silences is brought to you by User Interviews, the fastest way to recruit.

Erin May [00:00:40]:
Targeted, high quality participants for any kind of research.

Erin May [00:00:49]:
Hello everybody and welcome back to Awkward Silences. Today we're here with Andrew Hogan, who is the head of Insights at Figma. We're very happy to have you here today, Andrew, to talk about the future of design collaboration. So many meaty topics we're going to jump into and I think you're the right person to do it. So. And It's Friday the 13th, so nothing's going to go wrong. Everything's going to go swimmingly and amazingly. So happy to have you here, Andrew.

Andrew Hogan [00:01:15]:
Glad to be here.

Andrew Hogan [00:01:16]:
I didn't know it was Friday the 13th.

Carol Guest [00:01:17]:
It is.

Erin May [00:01:18]:
Sorry to break the news.

Andrew Hogan [00:01:20]:
Thank you. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Erin May [00:01:23]:
My pleasure. We've got Carol here too.

Carol Guest [00:01:25]:
Hi everyone. Really excited to dig in. Yeah, Both to talk a little about Figma and then all what Figma is learning about and thinking about future of work.

Erin May [00:01:33]:
Yeah, lots of meta levels here in terms of learning insights about design and of course you're a design collaboration tool, so this will be a lot of fun. But Andrew, you have an interesting background, as many folks in sort of Insights and Research do. But maybe we could start by just getting a little taste of what got you to your current role.

Andrew Hogan [00:01:50]:
I was in consulting and we ran some interesting research and I had started talking about that a little bit publicly and I thought, well, this is cool, we should, I want to do this more.

Andrew Hogan [00:01:58]:
And then I went to work at Forrester and I was actually hired to do like digital strategy things, research, digital strategy and how that's working.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:08]:
And then you rapidly realize that that's.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:10]:
Actually a big discussion about design and research just sort of repackaged in a different way often and with different goals and group of people from there. It was like, where else can I.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:21]:
Do this kind of thing? Who else is interested in talking about the way that design is changing and the way that the industry is changing? And then obviously Figma is a great place to do that and has been really interesting for about the past three years.

Erin May [00:02:35]:
Amazing, amazing. And then I know that you also became a parent recently and that factored into a little bit of a side hustle. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:44]:
I have two kids.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:45]:
I have one daughter that is a.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:47]:
Little over three and then I have another daughter that is eight months. And I actually delayed my parental leave to work on config those of us who run big company conferences.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:56]:
So my wife was out a little.

Andrew Hogan [00:02:57]:
Longer and we worked that out. And I just love my daughters so much and it's been such a joy and so interesting and I feel so.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:04]:
Privileged and happy to watch them grow.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:07]:
Up and try to help them grow up.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:08]:
It's just been really cool. The side hustle, it's really overselling it.

Erin May [00:03:13]:
The hobby.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:13]:
The hobby. I don't know what it is in there. It's called parent tech. Parent tech.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:19]:
And it grew out of this realization.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:21]:
That we were not being as intentional.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:23]:
With like how the iPad got brought.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:25]:
Out and with like what we were.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:26]:
Watching and like what was my daughter doing. And it's like the middle of the pandemic too, so it's a little harder. So I'm trying to be kind to.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:33]:
Myself and about that.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:35]:
Sort of just do what you need to do.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:37]:
But we realized we really needed to think about how.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:40]:
What is the role of technology and consumption and creation with technology in our daughter's life going to be and how.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:47]:
Should we help her with that?

Andrew Hogan [00:03:48]:
We're on our computers all the time. We're on our phones all the time. I love doing those things.

Andrew Hogan [00:03:53]:
It's given me like a great career and like enhanced my creativity. And there's all these positives we all have, but we just realized that that.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:00]:
Wasn'T happening on purpose and it wasn't happening with intention. And so I started Parent Tech as.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:06]:
Really like a self excuse to talk to people about how they were parenting.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:12]:
Around technology and with the challenges.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:14]:
Because with every new technology, parenting changes.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:17]:
Expectations change, society changes. And so it's just been this great exercise of like learning, well, what are you dealing with when you have an 8 year old? What about when you have a 14 year old? What about when you HAVE a 5 year old?

Andrew Hogan [00:04:28]:
Should you buy Pok Poc, which is this sort of digital toy thing that.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:34]:
I'm kind of obsessed with right now, really fascinating app that my daughter loves using. How should you think about the time that they have with that versus the.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:42]:
Time that they have watching a Sesame Street.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:45]:
And how should you think about a Sesame street versus like a Doc McStuffins.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:48]:
Or all of those things? And I'm just a researcher, I just start talking. What? What is it that works?

Andrew Hogan [00:04:54]:
What are you doing? You have.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:55]:
What device? What does that do?

Andrew Hogan [00:04:57]:
Oh, firewall.

Andrew Hogan [00:04:58]:
Oh, that's kind of cool. So anyway, it's been a really cool.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:01]:
Exercise that I started at the end.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:03]:
Of my parental leave and I've kind.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:05]:
Of carried it through and I feel.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:07]:
Really good about continuing to do that research and work and talking to people. So if people have ideas, thoughts, I'm into it.

Carol Guest [00:05:14]:
The website is parent tech. We'll be sure to link it in the show notes. But yes, for those who are listening, who are spending, have kids, spend a lot of time with kids. One thing that I love from reading through it was just the sort of the nuance. Right. Like you're a researcher. So that's a big piece here. But I think the conversation used to be screen time, no screen time and then adding nuance of like, well, what are they doing with this? And how does that help their imagination? Creativity.

Carol Guest [00:05:36]:
Really fun to see.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:37]:
Yeah.

Carol Guest [00:05:37]:
I'm also the parent of a three year old, so excited to learn more.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:40]:
Thank you.

Carol Guest [00:05:40]:
Let's jump over to Figma. So I'm sure many of our listeners use Figma day to day, so maybe we'll just start with your role. So you're the head of insights@Figma. What does that mean? And then tell us a little bit of how it fits in with the other functions.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:55]:
Yeah, so the head of insights at Figma means that I'm doing research about.

Andrew Hogan [00:05:59]:
Where the industry's going, what challenges are.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:01]:
Happening, how are different kinds of companies tackling those challenges? I work really closely with our research.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:08]:
Team to run studies that we might.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:11]:
Run internally or we might commission from.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:13]:
Outside groups, which I'll talk about a couple of those later.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:16]:
There's just something so interesting about taking a step back and doing this like meta look. Where is this industry going? What are some of the issues that it faces? Who are the people and the actors that are involved? This is a research focused research, sort of product focused podcast.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:33]:
But like there, those people are integral.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:35]:
In the design process too and so are designers. And there's not even just one kind of designer either.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:40]:
There's like a whole stack of. And so it just makes it this.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:43]:
Really interesting thing to get to talk.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:45]:
About publicly based on research.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:48]:
It's been cool to build and to.

Andrew Hogan [00:06:50]:
Work on over the last three years as we work on that amazing.

Erin May [00:06:54]:
So I know you'll talk a little bit more about some of the methods and projects that you've taken on. Would you consider this sort of like big strategic research, market research? I know you're working with research teams. Like how do all these kinds of research I guess fit together at Figma?

Andrew Hogan [00:07:08]:
It's always evolving, right?

Andrew Hogan [00:07:09]:
Like these things are always changing.

Andrew Hogan [00:07:11]:
What is the role of like software spend in this and how does software.

Andrew Hogan [00:07:15]:
Spend then translate into the actions and activities that we do?

Andrew Hogan [00:07:20]:
Everyone's favorite topic, digital transformation. Is that over? Is it continuing? Has it been supplanted by generative AI transformation?

Andrew Hogan [00:07:28]:
The goal is always to like, you don't do the study that ends with.

Andrew Hogan [00:07:32]:
Like 75% of companies are digitally transforming. You try to end with something that.

Andrew Hogan [00:07:37]:
Helps somebody do their job better or think about the world differently because that's.

Andrew Hogan [00:07:42]:
Always the risk with the sort of people call it thought leadership, which is.

Andrew Hogan [00:07:45]:
I kind of want to roll my eyes a little bit at that. You want to help people see a.

Andrew Hogan [00:07:50]:
Different perspective and view on the world. We're all trying to make sense of this because we only have our little view. How do you expand it out? And it's just doing the same things with a different kind of scope.

Carol Guest [00:08:00]:
A couple of questions on how you're researching before we get into what you're learning. One, when you say industry, is it design, is it tech? Like what is the scope of what you're looking at? And then, yeah, how do you understand it?

Andrew Hogan [00:08:10]:
How big is design? Design is huge. Design has many different disciplines and facets to it and activities and definitions.

Andrew Hogan [00:08:19]:
I think Figma is largely thinking through.

Andrew Hogan [00:08:22]:
The role of software in the world and software in the activities that we.

Andrew Hogan [00:08:27]:
Do, the things that we buy, what we parenting, like what has been, you know, it's all those things. I do think there's some bounds that are always offered by that. How many things do you do that don't involve some level of screen mediated interaction or planning or activity? And so you rapidly get to how.

Andrew Hogan [00:08:47]:
Does this impact travel? So we did this, we've done some.

Andrew Hogan [00:08:50]:
Series on like how is travel being redesigned?

Andrew Hogan [00:08:53]:
How is retail being redesigned? How are financial services being redesigned? Because our relationship with banks is as.

Andrew Hogan [00:08:59]:
You get to people who are just.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:01]:
Entering banking now, their relationship with a bank is wildly different than our relationship. I remember going into a branch to deposit a check. It's very foreign concept for many people now.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:12]:
So I think we're always trying to.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:14]:
Find like where are the bounds of.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:15]:
This and how should we scope it?

Andrew Hogan [00:09:18]:
Because it can rapidly spiral out of control. And one of the challenges in any.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:21]:
Research project is like, what are we really answering here? And how do we not just 75% of companies are transforming.

Erin May [00:09:28]:
Right? So yeah, digital transformation is what you kind of kicked off with. And then quickly, you know, we started talking about AI and I imagine, right, With Figma being for sort of screen design. Right. And then we expand out to digital and now we're talking about AI. Where does the screen fit into this?

Andrew Hogan [00:09:44]:
We don't necessarily think about it just.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:46]:
As screen design because software is such.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:48]:
A big part of how people complete.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:51]:
Activities in their everyday life.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:53]:
And so I think most companies who.

Andrew Hogan [00:09:55]:
Are doing this work are also what is happening before and after, which is the role of research often reveals those things. And then that's often where you find.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:04]:
Like, what are the emotional components to this?

Andrew Hogan [00:10:09]:
What is the meaning that we're trying to help someone create.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:13]:
It becomes more than just like what.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:14]:
Is on the screen.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:15]:
It's also the before and afters and.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:18]:
The feelings and how do you evoke those things or maybe tamp them down.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:22]:
If they're things like anxiety.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:24]:
The screen is never just the screen.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:27]:
And then there's also how does it get built? Because when you hand stuff to developers.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:32]:
Without any sort of conversation, all kinds of things happen.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:35]:
They're their own creative people who have.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:38]:
Ideas about how things should work. And so we're always trying to figure.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:41]:
Out how do we communicate well and.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:44]:
How do we help teams communicate well across from designer to developer, from product to developer, from researcher to designer to researcher. You end up in this, where does all this happen and how do we help it to all happen better so.

Andrew Hogan [00:10:58]:
That something great can happen on the other side?

Andrew Hogan [00:11:00]:
You end up in the same problem.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:01]:
Of like, how do you scope this.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:03]:
Down into something that's helpful for someone who's trying to understand the industry, whatever.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:08]:
It is or a particular problem or.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:10]:
Challenge that they have, the scope is large.

Carol Guest [00:11:13]:
We're talking about design and design's relation to software. And then software has a big role, as you said, in all of our day to day activities. And then you also mentioned the relationship between design and other teams that they work with. How do you actually approach this research? Right. It seems very broad. Maybe you have an example research project or something. How do you actually approach day to day?

Andrew Hogan [00:11:34]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I mentioned we did a series.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:37]:
On redesigning finance and redesigning retail. So that was getting really specific about those challenges.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:43]:
We also ran a study that I'm really proud of that we'll obviously come back to about how products that are.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:51]:
Powered by generative AI or have like.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:52]:
A really strong generative AI component to them.

Andrew Hogan [00:11:56]:
What is that process like? And what do designers and developers think about their involvement in those projects?

Andrew Hogan [00:12:03]:
Because that's obviously a hot topic, except.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:05]:
It'S almost like cascading down.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:07]:
Right?

Andrew Hogan [00:12:08]:
Do the generative AI thing. We need the generative AI features coming.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:11]:
Down from a C level.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:12]:
Are they proud of it? And so we found like one third.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:15]:
Were not proud of, or, sorry, only.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:17]:
One third were proud of what they had shipped to date. And so we'll come back to that study because that's always interesting when you can trend.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:24]:
We'll come back to that study and we'll see if. Has generative AI kind of run out of steam? I don't think that it has. Are people more proud? Are they more likely to be proud.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:32]:
Than they were before? And what do they think of as the role of design and design activities within creating those kinds of products?

Andrew Hogan [00:12:40]:
We're finding that the process is not the same, but it still involves people with unique expertise collaborating together to get.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:49]:
To something great at the end, which.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:51]:
Is kind of different than maybe what people would use.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:55]:
Oh, generative AI is changing everything.

Andrew Hogan [00:12:56]:
And then the reality is that it's actually they're just designers, developers, researchers working.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:01]:
Really closely together to figure out the.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:03]:
Best thing that they could make. So a couple different flavors of studies, some industry vertical specific generative AI. And then we even ran a really, really cool one with Artifact, which is.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:16]:
A research and design consultancy that some.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:18]:
Folks may know about generative AI's effect.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:21]:
On collaborative work, because that's often something.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:24]:
That has not been thought of as changing as much with generative AI, how we work together and how we make decisions.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:30]:
So we ran a study there as.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:31]:
Well which had some interesting findings speaking of collaboration.

Erin May [00:13:35]:
So I know Figma is a big part of how lots of teams do lots of different kinds of research. And I'm guessing you have a unique set of insights about how that works. So maybe you could talk us a little bit about how you see Figma showing up either in your own research or in the broader world of how folks are collaborating around research.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:53]:
People often think about it as well.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:56]:
We're going to put the thing in.

Andrew Hogan [00:13:57]:
Front of users and they're going to react to it. And then what's interesting about this is what happens after that.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:02]:
Do you go into figjam and do.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:04]:
You react to different findings?

Andrew Hogan [00:14:07]:
Do people have more questions? How do you get those questions out of the team.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:11]:
How do you get a pulse check on whether people actually agree with the findings or whether they have doubt that they're just maybe not voicing.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:19]:
Which if you're not in the same room is actually really hard to figure out. So you look for other cues like do you create alignment skills scales to talk about it. So we see a lot of things.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:27]:
Like that happening in figjam where there's like a readout, a discussion, some sort of prompt to just elicit a little.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:34]:
More involvement about the findings.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:37]:
And then of course there's sometimes you have to convince people of things.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:41]:
And so there's where something like slides comes in. Figma slides. What's the story that we want people.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:47]:
To sort of take away a little.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:49]:
Bit more of a one way presentation and a little bit less participatory.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:54]:
And so you see teams finding the.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:56]:
Right kind of like mode for that.

Andrew Hogan [00:14:58]:
Are we trying to convince people of something?

Andrew Hogan [00:15:00]:
Are we trying to hear their perspective and get alignment?

Andrew Hogan [00:15:03]:
There's all these different activities that even go beyond.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:07]:
You put the prototype in front of.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:08]:
A user and they have a response.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:10]:
The confluence of those different factors is.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:13]:
What'S really interesting because we have so many more tools than we did before to try to make this happen.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:21]:
And then the role of the individual doing this work is to try to.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:25]:
Create the conditions for that collaboration to happen within whatever power systems sort of exist within the company or context already exists.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:35]:
And we find that Figma is a really useful tool for doing some of those things.

Andrew Hogan [00:15:40]:
In addition to here's the prototype, walk through it and tell us what you're finding.

Erin May [00:15:46]:
Yeah, and I guess, right, so as it's a collaboration forward tool. Right. And so the prototypes would be the obvious use case in a research context. Then you're talking about using the figjam more on the analysis and processing and even the presenting of insights potentially side of things. Did that all kind of happen organically as more folks started collaborating around using Figma in their research workflows? Or is that by design or that kind of back and forth loop?

Andrew Hogan [00:16:12]:
I don't know the answer of whether.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:14]:
It was fully by design from the beginning.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:16]:
I will say figjam was created because.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:19]:
People were doing it in Figma design, they were making their own stickies.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:24]:
So if you go back to sort of like the early days of that, I think Mahika has done some presentations.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:30]:
And discussion of that in other places.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:32]:
One of our PMs.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:34]:
And then the Figma slides is the.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:36]:
Same sort of thing where people are, they're Making slides in Figma. How do we make this easier for them? And how do we kind of help.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:47]:
With more of the process too, because it is hard to switch in between different tools and kind of stitch it all together.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:55]:
I don't think we would say like you can never leave Figma, you can.

Andrew Hogan [00:16:58]:
Never leave any of these products. I think it's just trying to make it a little simpler for the different behaviors that people are already doing that.

Andrew Hogan [00:17:05]:
Are all part of this process of all of us collaboration.

Andrew Hogan [00:17:09]:
This giant word is a set of activities.

Andrew Hogan [00:17:12]:
How do we kind of support those activities in ways that we see people.

Andrew Hogan [00:17:17]:
Already kind of going into Developers are another direction. They were already in Figma design. They were already doing things with Figma design. How do we help them do what they're trying to do better instead of.

Andrew Hogan [00:17:27]:
Kind of piecing it together?

Erin May [00:17:29]:
Awkward interruption. This episode of awkward silences, like every episode of awkward silences, is brought to you you by user interviews.

Carol Guest [00:17:37]:
We know that finding participants for research is hard. User interviews is the fastest way to recruit targeted, high quality participants for any kind of research. We're not a testing platform. Instead we're fully focused on making sure you can get just in time insights for your product development, business strategy, marketing and more.

Erin May [00:17:54]:
Go to userinterviews.com awkward to get your first three participants free.

Carol Guest [00:18:01]:
We had a podcast or webinar not so long ago and one of the things that came up a lot was this idea of burning the research report. The idea that there are lots of different ways to share insights. One is creating another prototype, one is something more collaborative. Figjam and then slides or the readout is just one way that we might take action from research. So it's fun to think that we can do all that in Figma. Right.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:21]:
It's so interesting how you're told to do X job and what are the.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:26]:
Things that fit into X job. You almost have to craft them into.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:29]:
What you think will work best and use almost stitch the tools together and.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:35]:
It'S not like use this small set of tools anymore. Now you have this giant bucket of.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:39]:
Tools and techniques and tactics. Especially because it's not just in person anymore.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:44]:
Right.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:45]:
It's very. The screens mediate a lot of these things.

Carol Guest [00:18:48]:
All right, I think we're going to shift gears a little bit and I think we're going to now get into some of the details of these studies that you've done.

Andrew Hogan [00:18:54]:
Right.

Carol Guest [00:18:54]:
I think we're going to talk about three. One on AI, one on collaboration and one on design, leadership and yeah, we'd just love to hear some of the trends. So we'll start with AI. You already sort of previewed that a little bit, but you did some deep dives to think about how AI is changing the workplace and collaboration. Yeah, we'd love to hear what you learned.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:12]:
So, I mean, this was an amazing.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:13]:
Collaboration with Shane on our research team.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:17]:
We were interested in the products that.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:21]:
Were being built that were being powered by AI.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:23]:
How are they being done, how are they being designed and like, how did people feel about how that process was going and about their potential impact. So I teased only a third were.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:33]:
Proud of what they had built. I don't have a data point on.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:36]:
How many are proud of the things.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:38]:
That they build in general.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:39]:
So it's funny, you know, that this is a weakness in your study and you just feel it every time, but.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:45]:
I think only a third being proud is a little bit. That seems low to me.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:49]:
Right. Most of them thought that things were.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:51]:
Going to change pretty significantly over the next 12 months.

Andrew Hogan [00:19:54]:
So coming up on 12 months, it'll be interesting to see how that's changed. And we also was so meta because.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:02]:
Are you using AI to design the.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:05]:
Thing that is AI, or are you.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:08]:
Designing a thing without AI?

Andrew Hogan [00:20:11]:
It was such a funny survey challenge that again, I'm really happy I worked with Shane on that one because you had to disambiguate all of these different parts of it.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:20]:
And I still think that there was probably some bleed over where people were.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:24]:
Thinking about things, things they had used AI for.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:27]:
Instead of thinking about, oh, I'm designing something that is maybe agentive, or I'm.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:33]:
Designing something that generates images or they.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:35]:
Were thinking about, oh, I generate images.

Andrew Hogan [00:20:37]:
In my process, therefore I'm design anyway. It's one of those tricks that you always have within research. And I think we'll probably do it a little differently this coming time around.

Erin May [00:20:46]:
Only in 5, 10 years, however many years, will we know where we are and whatever the curve looks like. Right. To your point about the 1/3, is it just that we're in the early stage of the curve and people haven't sort of figured out how to work with it yet? Is it that? What is the promise of AI going to look like? Of course, none of us knows. Right. But I think expectations were, from where I said a combination of very high and then skeptical too. I think you saw a lot of both. Right. So it feels like the hype has calmed down and almost like a little bit of not a starting over, but a reset.

Erin May [00:21:18]:
It'll be very, very interesting to see where we end up.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:22]:
My favorite conclusion from this was not a data point.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:25]:
It was actually the discovery that I think I had bumped into before of Amara's Law, which is that we always.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:31]:
Overestimate how much things will change in the short term, we underestimate how much they will change in the long term.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:37]:
And it's just a reminder of people.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:39]:
Thought there'd be significant change over the next year.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:42]:
And I think if you've been following.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:43]:
Like, the digital transformation sort of world.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:46]:
It takes a long time to really shift how people work, what they build.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:51]:
All of these other things that are, I would argue, these huge parts of.

Andrew Hogan [00:21:55]:
Work and life that go beyond can you generate an image, can write you a first draft of your email. There's just so much else that is.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:06]:
Untouched and will be for quite some time.

Erin May [00:22:08]:
How is it impacting collaboration? Or how do you see AI impacting collaboration in the near term?

Andrew Hogan [00:22:15]:
So we saw a pretty big difference between how many people said it had.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:21]:
Significantly transformed the way they collaborated.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:24]:
So we asked, like, how has it.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:25]:
Transformed the products that you've worked on?

Andrew Hogan [00:22:27]:
How has it transformed your company strategy?

Andrew Hogan [00:22:31]:
And then, like, how has it transformed the way you work with others? And there was a big gap between those things.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:36]:
And I think we probably intuitively knew that that would be the case.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:41]:
But by and large, you know, meetings are mostly unchanged. It, like, transcribes things.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:45]:
It suggests, oh, these are the topics.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:47]:
This is the agenda. And I think for some sales purposes, it's probably been more significant.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:51]:
But we. We actually commissioned a study with Artifact.

Andrew Hogan [00:22:55]:
So that the Research and Design agency about how this could change how we collaborate in the future. They were doing a little bit of, like, futuristic, like, where's this going?

Andrew Hogan [00:23:04]:
And we used a Jambot, which is a widget that was built as part of an internal.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:09]:
We do these maker weeks, which is.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:11]:
Sort of like a hackathon at Figma.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:13]:
The widget had been built originally for that.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:15]:
It was obviously upgraded and fully put out there, and it was put out in beta.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:19]:
And so this Jambot way of using generative AI shows people what other people are prompting and sort of the chain. So it's a more collaborative way of kind of prompting.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:28]:
Together we tested that with a couple.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:31]:
Different groups, and the most interesting finding from this study is that the groups, when they were using generative AI in their session, they talked 40% more.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:40]:
So what we believe is that it actually just injected a bunch of energy into these processes, even in places where maybe it wasn't Needed for groups, it wasn't needed.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:53]:
These were product development teams, like you know, teams of designers, developers, PMs.

Andrew Hogan [00:23:57]:
And so it was kind of interesting to see 40% more talking is actually a lot. That's what is being lost doing synthesizing.

Andrew Hogan [00:24:09]:
It almost became. We kind of had this analogy around energy. It almost became.

Andrew Hogan [00:24:14]:
There was this great quote about it's.

Andrew Hogan [00:24:16]:
A bucking horse, you get on and.

Andrew Hogan [00:24:18]:
Maybe you hang on and maybe you get thrown off.

Andrew Hogan [00:24:21]:
And it's just a reminder of how hard it is to change the way we work together and how many different norms and kind of expectations are there. That's different than like can you generate an image or can you generate something.

Andrew Hogan [00:24:33]:
That looks like an essay?

Erin May [00:24:34]:
Right when you're using your AI as a personal assistant, it's like do the thing, it does the thing. Now I'm more productive and then I'll go talk about it with someone else. When it's entered into the group chat, it's like who invited this guy to the party? What is going on now? So maybe a more complicated dynamic in the short term. So I know you do a lot of research on how different teams work together. Design, product, how they work together inside and outside of Figma. Maybe we could talk a little bit more about your collaboration research.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:01]:
The core of this was a study with Forrester.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:04]:
So Forrester research, where I used to work, I got a chance to do that. And this was really about comparing almost pre pandemic behaviors to. I don't know about post pandemic but like the things that kind of normalized to some extent. And that study was interesting because it basically revealed there's, there's like new ways that you have to build credibility and influence and almost think about the ways.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:32]:
In which you work together.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:34]:
And I'll give you an example. When you walk into a room, you can sort of tell something about somebody's.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:39]:
Manner, how their day is, how things are going.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:41]:
When you look at their, where they're.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:42]:
At on Slack, unless they've literally put.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:44]:
Something in there, you don't see it. And the messages I had leaders for.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:49]:
Around the study telling me like, yeah.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:51]:
I think a lot about what emojis.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:52]:
I'm going to put in the Slack.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:53]:
Message because this is the primary way.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:55]:
People are going to interact. I think a lot about performing on.

Andrew Hogan [00:25:58]:
Camera because I am essentially performing. This is like a broadcast.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:03]:
And that study was interesting because it just revealed even though return to office.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:08]:
Sort of initiatives are happening, you still.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:11]:
Convey so much meaning through interactions that.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:15]:
Are video or chat than you did before.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:19]:
And you've lost some of these other kinds of other ways in which you used to determine what was going on.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:24]:
So this is a super interesting study and we kind of put out a headline that like work has changed.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:29]:
Because I think for many people that they hadn't sort of recognized that that was the case and there were some.

Andrew Hogan [00:26:34]:
New tools and expectations that maybe they had.

Carol Guest [00:26:37]:
And so a piece of what you're saying is, even if you are not a fully remote company or you do have time in office, even then some of the patterns, the know habits that we have and how we communicate might have, might be maintained from a time where we were fully remote. Is that right?

Andrew Hogan [00:26:52]:
I don't know. It was again, sort of meta about work in general.

Carol Guest [00:26:57]:
And is it, you know, you focus on designers specifically. Was there anything that really stood out in the design world?

Andrew Hogan [00:27:02]:
It's interesting because in that sort of.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:04]:
World, being able to make a high quality visual to communicate an idea is really important.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:10]:
And being able to sort of help.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:12]:
People see the future and visualize the.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:15]:
Future can help rally people who are otherwise.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:18]:
Their attention is split across all the different tools where they work.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:22]:
You have this thing that you can put everyone looking at and then center the discussion around that thing.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:28]:
And so that's not like I don't have a data point like, oh, that became 50% more important. I just have this qualitative sense that somehow that became even more essential for.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:38]:
More people in the process too, who.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:40]:
Were trying to communicate visually.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:43]:
Not in the sense of like, I.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:44]:
Made this infographic, but in the sense.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:46]:
That, like, I have this concept or this idea and we can all rally.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:50]:
Around and look at this.

Erin May [00:27:52]:
What are some of the other ways that work has changed?

Andrew Hogan [00:27:54]:
We hinted a little bit at like.

Andrew Hogan [00:27:56]:
The software creation and the importance of software. If all of your interactions at work are through screens and different tools, that.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:05]:
Obviously makes those things really important. And then the part that's outside of the tools themselves is like, we are all creating content, we are all content creators. And sometimes you, you want to put content in the world to like almost.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:25]:
Convey a bigger message. I have a pulse on this particular.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:28]:
Topic, or I have knowledge of this.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:31]:
Or I have experience this in some sense, parent tech is kind of that.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:34]:
Same thing where, like, I have an.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:37]:
Interest in this topic, I'm going to.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:38]:
Put it out in the world and then you are going to react and.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:42]:
Tell me things and we are going.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:44]:
To have a different kind of conversation than we would have had if I hadn't made that.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:48]:
And so one interesting thing that we.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:49]:
Did at Figma is we actually had this internal podcast newsletter thing called Fig.

Andrew Hogan [00:28:55]:
Brew that I worked on with some of the research team for quite a while.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:00]:
We're a little bit on hiatus now.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:01]:
I'm still catching up from being out. We've made it an external interview series.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:05]:
Too, so you can see that on Figma.com figbrew but the act of making.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:11]:
It also brought us together to talk.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:13]:
About topics and then putting it out.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:15]:
There, then caused other people to see.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:17]:
It and then have feelings and reactions and other things. And so I think there's just the.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:22]:
Information environment and attention that we work.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:24]:
In at work is not dissimilar from.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:27]:
The one that is outside of that. And so if the creator economy is a big deal in other places, and being a creator is a big deal.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:34]:
In other places, being a creator and.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:37]:
Having specific topics and new interesting ways.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:39]:
Of putting your work in the world becomes more important inside of a company, just to gather some more attention and.

Andrew Hogan [00:29:46]:
Just to build a little bit of influence.

Erin May [00:29:49]:
Yeah. And my background marketing, I've done content my whole career. Back before there were content creators, it was right. It's like, let's make some content on the socials, you know, which is what we're doing now. But a challenge of any kind of content, to your point, is standing out, because there is a whole lot of content out there. So I'm not sure if your research placed the value judgment on this, but I am curious what it learned in terms of both. In terms of like the cognition of the person processing all of this content by which we share our opinions and test them out and dialogue around them. How do we.

Erin May [00:30:23]:
Is anyone suffering? I don't know. Information overload.

Andrew Hogan [00:30:28]:
Yeah.

Andrew Hogan [00:30:28]:
And so it's funny, we also did another study with the Design Executive Council about how leaders are responding to this, particularly design leaders. And one of their essential roles is as a clarifier.

Andrew Hogan [00:30:41]:
So an intrapreneur looking for opportunities, a visionary putting something out there in the.

Andrew Hogan [00:30:47]:
World for us to aim at, and then a unifier. And that's where that sort of visualization comes in. And leaders are recognizing, especially design leaders, but I think leaders of all kinds.

Andrew Hogan [00:30:56]:
Are recognizing people need to know what.

Andrew Hogan [00:30:59]:
To focus on and where to go.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:01]:
And they can convey that through like.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:02]:
A strong, powerful visual.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:04]:
I think that has implications whether you're leading a project or whether you're leading a company.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:11]:
And there's many ways and tools of doing that.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:13]:
We didn't get into which are the most effective. I Know that design leaders love to.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:18]:
Put like a product concept out there that works really well and looks feels really good. And then that's like the core technique that they tend to use. So that was an interesting study with.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:27]:
The Design Executive Council, which is the kind of thing we love to work on and share.

Carol Guest [00:31:32]:
We spent another minute on this study. So it's called Strategic Behaviors and Mindsets of Design Executives. And you mentioned sort of like three major. Is it behaviors or mindsets that design executives might have? Can you take us through more of them in detail and then maybe, yeah, share more on each?

Andrew Hogan [00:31:48]:
The intrapreneur is looking for opportunities and.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:52]:
This is the idea that if you are a C level design executive, you.

Andrew Hogan [00:31:55]:
Are a design leader, but you are also a business leader. So where is the company going? What should they be thinking about, what should be looking at?

Andrew Hogan [00:32:02]:
What risks exist out there.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:04]:
So being an entrepreneur means looking for that and then trying to push that forward instead of waiting for somebody to.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:10]:
Give it to you.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:11]:
The visionary is the idea of pushing.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:13]:
Your team and other teams further, thinking.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:16]:
About the quality bar and thinking about.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:19]:
Where things should be going for them to be good.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:23]:
And then the strategic unifier is just like, how do we. There's so many initiatives, there's so many priorities.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:29]:
Someone has a brand house and then they also like, there's so many pieces.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:33]:
And if you are a design leader.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:35]:
If you are a design executive, telling.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:38]:
People this is the most important thing.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:39]:
For us to be doing and then commit, like staying after it, because that's.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:43]:
The hard part, right? This is the priority for these three months and then this other thing is the priority for these six months.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:49]:
And I think those things were essential.

Andrew Hogan [00:32:52]:
Mindsets and ways of working for these leaders.

Carol Guest [00:32:55]:
I know this study profiles different leaders. Do we find all of these mindsets exist in each leader or do some sort of tend to lean on one more than another?

Andrew Hogan [00:33:05]:
I think there's a spikiness for sure. The study wasn't designed to be a powerful quantitative study. It was designed to be how can we qualitatively get a sense of what is changing, what is new, what is unchanged? And I think there's certainly spikiness of people who see their role as looking for business opportunity, people who see their.

Andrew Hogan [00:33:25]:
Role as looking for how can we make the most good in the world by creating change.

Andrew Hogan [00:33:31]:
And I don't think you have to be great at all of them. I think you have to think about all of them.

Erin May [00:33:35]:
Though I was going to ask if any spiked is more important than the others, but it's not so much that this is what you're seeing and effective design leaders at this moment.

Andrew Hogan [00:33:46]:
Yeah, absolutely. You cannot be disconnected from company priorities.

Andrew Hogan [00:33:50]:
And you cannot ignore the, like, people need to know where to go, and.

Andrew Hogan [00:33:55]:
That has to be in lockstep with the group around you. If it's not, that's a problem, and that's a risk.

Andrew Hogan [00:33:59]:
Rachel Kobetz at PayPal has talked about the importance of being connected to your sort of, like, first team, which is the group that immediately is on the same level.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:09]:
I think all of those are important.

Erin May [00:34:11]:
Across all of this research. Having thought about design and collaboration and AI and all these big, exciting things, I don't know. Is there something you're most nervous about, excited about as you think about the couple of years or so ahead?

Andrew Hogan [00:34:24]:
I think Amara's Law, like, we underestimate.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:27]:
What will change in the long term, is one of the most interesting ways.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:32]:
Of thinking about this.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:33]:
When, like, the mobile craze started. Right.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:36]:
I remember you guys remember.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:37]:
So solomo, social, local, mobile. Anyway, that was a phrase that was.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:42]:
Thrown around for a while. That all starts, and somehow five years later, you're calling a car to wherever.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:50]:
You are, and it is solved.

Andrew Hogan [00:34:52]:
Like, this huge problem that many of us faced transformed the world, like the spread and proliferation of mobile technologies to where I'm starting a parenting site to try to understand the, you know, what do I need to know that I don't know? And I think that is really interesting, the progress and change and how it's always happened. I actually went back to a bunch of different history books around the role of technology and societies and how it's changed. And I found an example from the clock.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:24]:
There's a book by Mumford, Technics and Civilization from Pre World War II.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:29]:
And the way that he talks about the clock is that first you could.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:32]:
Keep the time, and then you tried to save the time, and then you.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:35]:
Were essentially serving the time.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:38]:
Your relationship with time changed because of.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:41]:
The invention of the clock.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:43]:
But how many centuries did that take?

Andrew Hogan [00:35:45]:
Like, how many? Anyway, that sort of stuff makes me really intrigued.

Erin May [00:35:49]:
Well, that's a great segue into our rapid fire section, I think. So maybe you could tell us about some of your favorite books, some favorite resources, thinkers, people you follow.

Andrew Hogan [00:35:59]:
I mentioned history. There's Technics in Civilization was a tough.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:02]:
Read, I'm going to be honest.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:03]:
So I would maybe use some AI assistance to work through that.

Erin May [00:36:08]:
Tough. In that way. Dense.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:10]:
It was dense. Not even in the way.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:11]:
I like dense.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:13]:
The other examples I was Thinking about.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:14]:
Here were like rise and fall of.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:16]:
American growth, which is sweet potato consumption over time as a way of tracking change, which I just thought was fascinating.

Erin May [00:36:24]:
Is it up or down sweet potato consumption?

Andrew Hogan [00:36:27]:
I don't even remember. I mean the general idea is that things change dramatically for the period through.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:33]:
The Civil War and then they actually haven't changed as much over the last.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:37]:
70, 80 years, which is kind of counter the narrative that many of us would think about. And this is just rise and fall of American growth. So he didn't have data from other places, but it just really helps to take a step back and look at.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:50]:
The moment that we're in versus other.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:52]:
Moments that have happened.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:53]:
That's like almost one class. Another thing that's interesting is Jeffrey Pfeffer.

Andrew Hogan [00:36:57]:
Who'S a Stanford professor and he has these books on power.

Andrew Hogan [00:37:00]:
It's just interesting to know what the.

Andrew Hogan [00:37:03]:
Different levers are and how to think about it.

Andrew Hogan [00:37:05]:
And then I'm always just intrigued by.

Andrew Hogan [00:37:07]:
What Ben Thompson at Stratecury or Craig Mod is doing. What are they creating and how are they kind of almost thinking about the world?

Andrew Hogan [00:37:16]:
And the thing that always comes to mind here is there's that clip of.

Andrew Hogan [00:37:19]:
Someone just saying like you can just do stuff. Clearly that's ignoring that there are risks and privileges and other things like that. But it's a really interesting way of like these people have just built things that they're proud of because they wanted to and they figured out a way to do it. And I just think that's really interesting.

Carol Guest [00:37:37]:
Some good resources. Again, we'll link to all these in the show notes as well. What's your favorite interview question?

Andrew Hogan [00:37:42]:
I like the Tell me about the last time you did X. I don't have a better one. This is the lamest, sorry, the most ridiculous suggestion. But I like that because most of business research is so abstract that you're.

Andrew Hogan [00:37:56]:
Like, tell me about your digital transformation initiatives.

Andrew Hogan [00:37:59]:
What are they going to say? But tell me about the last time you tried to do launch a new website. Tell me about the last time that.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:06]:
You tried to run a research project. And then from there you can go a lot of different places because it's.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:11]:
So specific and I'm sorry I don't.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:12]:
Have a cooler one.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:13]:
I was struggling with this last night, to be honest.

Erin May [00:38:15]:
No, it's not about making the interviewer look cool, it's about getting good insights. Right. And to your point, I think not only are you talking about actual things that happen, which is always better than hypothetical. Would you should. You could you. But you get some emotional responses too, right? Of talking through memories. Are you active? We talked about your parent tech site will link other places you're active online.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:39]:
LinkedIn. I like LinkedIn.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:41]:
I am firmly in the I like LinkedIn camp.

Erin May [00:38:44]:
You said it here. You told the world.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:47]:
I'm telling the world. Other people have questions and I just like that it is attached to real.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:52]:
People'S names and I can almost know.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:55]:
Part of why people are coming to a particular conclusion.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:58]:
I like that.

Andrew Hogan [00:38:59]:
It's just, it's more context.

Erin May [00:39:01]:
Yeah, I like LinkedIn too. Mileage may vary in terms of thought leadership quality, but I like it. It tends to be a short form and you can get some nuggets and. Yeah, what were you going to say?

Andrew Hogan [00:39:12]:
Follow people.

Erin May [00:39:13]:
Follow people.

Andrew Hogan [00:39:14]:
It was a big unlock for me.

Andrew Hogan [00:39:15]:
When I realized I could treat it like Twitter. I could just follow people that I thought were interesting. I don't need to connect to everybody.

Erin May [00:39:20]:
And you can unfollow them too. Where it's like, I get it. I get your beat. I'm on to the next thing. Yeah.

Carol Guest [00:39:25]:
Yep.

Andrew Hogan [00:39:26]:
Key insight.

Carol Guest [00:39:27]:
And if people are following you, are there any upcoming studies that people should be aware of looking out for things that you're publishing soon?

Andrew Hogan [00:39:34]:
We're always launching things and I am just like looking forward to next year.

Andrew Hogan [00:39:39]:
And putting a lot of interesting things into the world.

Erin May [00:39:42]:
Well, thanks so much for joining us, Andrew. This has been a lot of fun. I'm excited for the future and it'll always fun to check back in on these future leaning episodes and see where things end up in a couple of years because we'll know more then. But thanks again for joining us. It's great to have you.

Andrew Hogan [00:39:57]:
Thanks for having me on.

Erin May [00:40:05]:
Thanks for listening to Awkward Silences brought to you by User Interviews Theme music by Fragile Gang hi there Awkward Silences listener. Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard, we always appreciate a rating or review on your podcast app of choice.

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