Emily Wurgler [00:00:00]:
You don't have to be a hands on designer to be a good UX leader. And I'll say like in a lot of roles you're not just leading design, you're leading like experience strategy. And I think there's a ton of inherent skill sets in researchers that make for great design leaders. And just like thinking big picture, thinking generative, like researchers play a huge role in that generative work that shapes the product strategy. And that's what really you need in design leadership. That's a big part of your job.

Erin May [00:00:27]:
Hey, this is Erin May and this is Carol Guest and this is Awkward Silences. Awkward Silences is brought to you by User Interviews, the fastest way to recruit targeted high quality participants for any kind of research. Hello everybody and welcome back to Awkward Silences. Today we're here with Emily Wurgler. Emily is the global Director of experience design at McDonald's, a company I'm sure we are all very familiar with. So it's very exciting. I am loving it having you here. Today we're going to be talking about design leadership from a research perspective.

Erin May [00:01:09]:
So research and design always working together in interesting ways and very cool to have this design and research coming together in your role. So we're going to dig into that. Emily, thanks so much for joining us.

Emily Wurgler [00:01:20]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Erin May [00:01:22]:
Awesome. We got Carol here too.

Carol Guest [00:01:23]:
Hey. Very excited to hear about your path from research design and then also just what it's like to do research and design at McDonald's, I should say.

Emily Wurgler [00:01:31]:
Yes.

Erin May [00:01:31]:
Fantastic. Well, let's jump right into that, Carol. You teed that up nicely. So your background is in research, Emily, and now you're the global director of Experience Design. So we'd love to hear about that transition and what led you to that transition.

Emily Wurgler [00:01:44]:
Yeah, absolutely. So my background in research started actually in academic research. I did a PhD in Sociology and as soon as I was done I was like, I'm not wanting to stay here. So I looked around for a job for a while and actually started in like marketing research, little tiny startup. We were doing like mobile qualitative and then I jumped over to like research agency life at Dscout where I was part of their studio and they had like an agency function there. And then I was in house leading the UX research group at Ajo Delhez which does is grocery. And while I was there I, my boss Emma was very supportive of like kind of growing me as a general like UX leader and so I would, you know, participate in design critiques and kind of began taking on larger and larger scope of just like leading UX work overall and thinking big picture and strategy and even kind of dipping my toes into product stuff as well. And so she actually like we talked about over the past year that I was there, like, oh, is transitioning to kind of general design leadership something you're interested in? And I was always, from as soon as she asked that like I had not thought about it, but yes, because I wanted, you know, research is great and I always loved it, but I like wanted to push it farther and like implement some of the recommendations that my team was making.

Emily Wurgler [00:03:04]:
And that was always really exciting to me. And I just like very pure ambition wise, like oh, the ceiling's higher if you're a design leader. So I was always thinking about that for, you know, the last year or so I was at Ahold. And then she actually got a job as the senior director of like the head of experience design at McDonald's. It was a new function that they were creating. They had always used agencies. So she was growing a team from scratch and she had an opening. And I applied for director of user experience research at McDonald's and I interviewed and she was like, so you can probably have this job if you want it, but would you consider making the jump over to design now? Just like straight into it at McDonald's? And I was like, yeah, absolutely, let's do it.

Emily Wurgler [00:03:48]:
And I was really quite terrified because you know, never being a hands on design researcher, it's like, will they respect me? Can I do this? Do I need to fill some gaps in knowledge? And the answer to all that was like, yes, I do have some like skill set gaps that I needed to fill and things that I needed to learn. But I was always someone who I've always been someone who, you know, like the some level of discomfort in a new job and jumping into something where it's like, oh, this role is probably too big for me. I've always just said yes to those opportunities. So I did that again and made the jump over to McDonald's and it's been a wild year and a half there because when I started I was one of like three people who were kind of in the very earliest team that was going to be focused on like product design. They had an existing like design system team and a small research team and an accessibility team. But like the product design thing was brand new. So I jumped in where it's like they were in the middle of kind of like a digital transformation quite frankly and trying to change the way that they build technology products because they came to the realization like, oh, we are kind of a tech company now and we need to do it in a way that's different than how they were currently doing it. So in the early days it was like it was the research background was always quite helpful of just kind of teaching the organization what we do, what skill sets we bring at different points in the process.

Emily Wurgler [00:05:07]:
But a big part of it was growing my team. So I lead design for a lot of our non customer facing products. So our POS is like the monitors in the kitchen that tell the crew what to make as well as some gnarly legacy enterprise tools where it's like you go in and you put in the menu items and you put like the pricing and taxing and all of this data that flows to our downstream channels. So had to grow a team from scratch. There was no designers on the team. We had some agency resources that we're going to be rolling off. But growing a team, establishing a process of working with these product and tech teams that had been there a while and it was very daunting but it was also been really exciting. I think it was also nice to make the transition from research to design at a new place because I didn't have, I don't want to call it baggage but just like everyone there only ever saw me as a design leader and so I didn't have to explain like or justify why I could do this job so that it's been really great and I definitely still have like gaps in my knowledge because I was never a hands on designer.

Emily Wurgler [00:06:12]:
But I do think like I bring a unique perspective on approaching design work and in the space I'm in where I'm not customer facing, like the research is so critically important to everything that we do that it's like a really good fit for my background and skillset.

Carol Guest [00:06:26]:
For someone who's interested in moving from research design or research to design leadership, were there any resources that were particularly useful? Any mindset shifts you had to make for yourself in order to do that transition?

Emily Wurgler [00:06:37]:
I mean honestly some of the free like Coursera and Udemy and like those types of classes are good and just books of just you know, the basics and the fundamentals. It's really great to have so many free resources out there. I think that those were really helpful. A lot of medium articles are so good of just like saturating yourself and like following people on LinkedIn who are always pushing out new content to get oriented to that but honestly, like, I think that like getting into Figma, like learning the tool was helpful too, like the very basics. I'm by no means a Figma expert, but just trying my hand at some of those tasks that designers are doing every day I think was also important to do. In terms of mindset shift, I'm trying to think of there are hard mindset shifts. I mean I, not really. I think that I once I was in that role, I was not just like laser focused on research.

Emily Wurgler [00:07:30]:
There were some things where like, oh, we have like not a lot of foundational work and understanding of who our users are for some of these products because it's like some of the products, it's an enterprise tool, so it may be 5,000 users across the entire globe, but it's a critically important tool. Then our restaurants can run without it. So just, it was good to have like that research background and just like, okay, here are the basic things we need to understand about our users and use cases before we can do really anything else. So I don't think I had to do much of a mindset shift in the early days. Honestly it felt pretty natural. And there are still times where, you know, some of my director peers who are much more like visual design focused, they'll like catch little things I'm like, I literally would have never caught that. And so like I have to lean on them for some of that, like the UI and really specific things I just frankly don't have an eye for. And I think it's okay to, to lean on peers and even direct reports for that because in design there's just like so many skill sets one could have and there are so few people who do them all well.

Emily Wurgler [00:08:35]:
And so it's just like knowing what I'm good at and leaning on others for the things where I'm not as good.

Erin May [00:08:40]:
Yeah. And often those sort of visual UI elements are one level further removed from like is this a good solution to the user problem or not as well. I'm curious, you mentioned kind of a little bit about the structure of your team. Is research on your team or that's another team or how do you work with dedicated researchers?

Emily Wurgler [00:08:56]:
Yeah, it's a separate team. So we have like four product areas at McDonald's and there's a director of design for each one of those. So I'm over the one called Serve, which is non customer facing products. But then there's a dedicated research team and they are currently growing. So it's going from a team of three to about eight. So they are like a hybrid model where they all report to a research director, but they're embedded within these product pillars. So. So I have one dedicated researcher for serve right now and soon to be two.

Emily Wurgler [00:09:25]:
So they are like in our design critiques, they're in our weekly design meeting. So they know what's going on and what the big problems are and they get to know the products and the users very well. But they don't report to me, which I think is a great model because they need the mentorship of a dedicated researcher. But they also like, I feel strongly to have like embedded researchers in product areas because especially in my space where the tools are like this is a super complex workflow and a very specific user across the world. They really have to know the products in order to contribute consistently and quickly. So they. Yeah, I love it. Having them dedicated to my pillar and the way that we engage them is like honestly right now it's just like you're in our design critique, we say, hey, we need to test this thing.

Emily Wurgler [00:10:11]:
You're right there. Like great, let's talk about it, let's figure it out. Sometimes we'll go directly, set up a meeting, like, hey, we have a bigger initiative. I'm going to need like dedicated time. Like this is going to take a while. But it's nothing. We don't have like a, you know, form we have to fill out and like hope and pray we can get resources aligned to it.

Erin May [00:10:28]:
Right, right. And so these researchers you mentioned there's going to be soon 8 these serve are sort of embedded in the four product fillers. I imagine maybe there's other research, market research functions across McDonald's doing more strategic McDonald's wide research. Yeah, yeah.

Emily Wurgler [00:10:42]:
So we have like a consumer insights team. They do a ton of interesting stuff. Like a lot of big focus on menu. So like menu development and like what's the cool new thing naming new products? Like a lot of that work happens with the consumer insights team and then we have a dedicated like foresights team that are looking at like 10 year trends which is really cool, interesting stuff. But we are, yeah, like we're a little bit niche like design research, user like traditional user experience research that's in our product like dedicated to our product group.

Erin May [00:11:12]:
Great. And then are researchers or sorry designers doing any of their own research? It sounds very collaborative. Right. In the work with the researchers. But yeah, how does that work?

Emily Wurgler [00:11:22]:
It's very collaborative but they are definitely doing their own research and it's typically like evaluative work. So we are Able to do some, like, sometimes unmoderated. It's hard because when our users, like, crew or McDonald's employees, it's hard to do, like, oh, just throw it on user zoom and see what we get. Like, that's not really possible. But we do have, like, a remote crew community where we can do a little bit of that stuff. Yeah. So designers are doing a lot. Like, they'll get advice on, like, hey, are these tasks I set up? Is this the way that I should set up this task? Is this prototype work? Does this interview protocol, you know, look at advice on that? But they will conduct a lot of those, like, remote usability tests.

Emily Wurgler [00:12:02]:
A lot of our users for our products are across the world. So it's like, oh, I have a call with Germany and then the Netherlands and then France. And so a lot of times it's the designers leading those interviews and doing some of the synthesis. But our generative work, like, that's something that dedicated researchers are typically leading. And we always want to be involved and, like, if it's in person, we'll be along for the ride and show up and do some observations and stuff like that. But the generative work is primarily led by our researchers.

Carol Guest [00:12:30]:
Because you mentioned it. Recruitment is always a hot topic. How do you do recruitment with crew, with internal members?

Emily Wurgler [00:12:38]:
It's been a challenge. There wasn't a lot of design research happening in my area before I started, and so I work for global McDonald's. But then each market that has McDonald's kind of runs their market separately. So we have some global tools. And then markets will have, like, only the US Market has this particular tool. So luckily, the US Market had set up for their own research. Whether it was. I don't even know what kind of work they were doing with their crew, but they had set up like a crew community.

Emily Wurgler [00:13:11]:
And so it's like 100 crew and some managers who signed up to participate in studies. So it's kind of like user interviews where they're ready to be used for anything they have. So we started utilizing that a lot for the products that they use, which is primarily our point of sale system. And so we do moderated interviews on there. We do some little surveys we could do, like unmoderated, like, discussion groups, stuff like that. That is the primary way that we were, at least in the beginning, recruiting for crew users. For our enterprise users, that is honestly just emails for the most part. They work for McDonald's.

Emily Wurgler [00:13:50]:
And so sometimes it takes some digging to figure out who an actual user is of the different products that we, that we are interested in because we've kind of grown the products under our scope. They're like a ton of enterprise products at McDonald's and not all of them have like a product person and a design person aligned to them. But we kind of keep bringing new products into our group. But a lot of times it's just like saying, okay, hey, we want to talk to someone who's a user of one of our products. Rfm Restaurant Bio maintenance. Very glamorous. They're like, oh, I like, I don't use it, but I have someone who I think will can tell you who are the primary users. So it's like a lot of that.

Emily Wurgler [00:14:27]:
And then once we know, we just have like a running list of who are the users across the world. Luckily, most McDonald's employees who work for the market speak English. So that's made it a lot more like efficient and time, like cost effective to be able to do those interviews and research with those users. So that's been great. One of the big challenges that we've had with crew in particular is getting crew outside of the US who can participate in research. So we've tried like in Germany. I did a market visit to Germany last fall and I met an ops guy and we had a new design that we wanted to do some usability testing with. And I just emailed him and I was like, hey, here's my pitch.

Emily Wurgler [00:15:12]:
We want to talk with crew in Germany. Is there any way that you can find like six to eight crew who speak English, who. I propose a plan, just kind of over schedule, one per, like by one for over the course of four hours and then set them up in the back office. We'll do it over teams and then you'll send them in one at a time to do this testing. And it worked great. And we've done it a few times since then, so there's that type of thing. But of course we're like limited to only English speakers. And so that's been a challenge.

Emily Wurgler [00:15:41]:
But one of the researchers, Meg on the serve pillar has over the course of like nine months, because everything takes a long time at McDonald's got the funding and buy in to create a global community. So it's not just the US but some of our lead markets like Germany, Australia, France, uk. So they're going to like, we got the funding to have translation services too. So we can do many, many more like quick research projects with crew from across the world.

Erin May [00:16:07]:
Fantastic. And how do you maintain your panel?

Emily Wurgler [00:16:10]:
I don't know, luckily I don't have.

Erin May [00:16:12]:
To worry about it. Got it.

Emily Wurgler [00:16:14]:
I think, I think we hire like C Space or something like that. Who maintains it for us? We just like there was one point last year, like we may not renew this for next year. We're like, take our money. Like, we'll help fund it. Like, it's working.

Erin May [00:16:28]:
I'm imagining you mentioned some of the methods that you're using, but with the just the sort of ethnographic piece of this could be so interesting, right? It's like, all right, we need people in the weeds. We've got a busy shift. We've got, you know, French fried grease is flying at the POS system. Do you try to replicate any of those like real world scenarios or.

Emily Wurgler [00:16:46]:
Yes. So there's a couple ways we can do it when we need like when the context is so important in the restaurant. So we've done in person work. So we just did a big trip across four countries in November where we are basically creating a brand new product for our shift leaders in the restaurant. So we spent about a week, like four days in each country just observing like full on entire shifts. So that was great to see it in person. It's like, it can be hard to get the money to do that because it's like, give me several thousand dollars or you know, give me $20,000 to send a couple of our people for a couple days. That can be challenging but super important.

Emily Wurgler [00:17:24]:
And recently like the reception that we've gotten when kind of reading out what we found and like how it gave us direction and what we're going to do next has been amazing and everyone's so excited that I think it will kind of pave the way for more in person research. But we also have a thing called Speedy Labs at McDonald's where it is literally like on the first floor at MHQ, which is what we call the headquarters of McDonald's, they have like a full on kitchen that they can move around to create the layout of any kitchen across the world. So we can use that to test things and create a real world scenario. And we're actually doing it for the first time where it's like we have a full kitchen staff and they're actually making the food and we can do all the timings of like how this change. We call it like a kitchen video system or we're redesigning like what we call the order cell. Basically just that tells the crew what sandwiches are in order, what customizations on all that, and we're changing the design and so we're going to do the full on testing where it's like they make all the sandwiches. We have the timers of like when they started it, when they pass it to the next station. And so that's super exciting to be able to test it.

Emily Wurgler [00:18:33]:
And kind of we're really doing like an a B test with two different versions of the design in like a as real world scenario that you can get without having to do any development or impact the running of a real restaurant at all.

Carol Guest [00:18:45]:
So it's like a form of prototyping, but it's like physical environment prototyping or something like that.

Emily Wurgler [00:18:50]:
Yeah. And they've used it, they've had this before they moved to downtown Chicago. They had what they call the innovation center, like way out in the burbs and they've had this for years because they do so much testing on the operational processes and like kitchen layouts and they have markets from around the world come in. Well, they'll, they'll try new things. And it's one of the reasons like McDonald's has so successfully like maintain their competitive edge, just like speed and convenience, because they very thoroughly test all of these new processes.

Carol Guest [00:19:19]:
2 follow on questions on this world tour that you went on. One is how did you, when you were doing sort of the in person research and then sharing the insights back, were there specific artifacts that you were sharing? I'm imagining pictures, videos. Were there things that really resonated there?

Emily Wurgler [00:19:33]:
Yeah, the videos resonated so much. There were lots of pictures, there were videos and then there were just stories. Like genuinely the stories help so much. So the things that we showed the video that one of the product managers created and he like voiced over and it was amazing. We were just showing like what we learned about what makes for excellent shift leadership. And we called it like the difference that makes the difference. And so it was just this montage of just like three variations of like styles of these excellent shift leaders and what they do to like run a great shift. We shared it yesterday actually with like hotshots like the chief customer officer, chief marketing officer and all their direct reports.

Emily Wurgler [00:20:12]:
And it just like really brought to life one, I think framing it in the positive of like we're trying to create a tool to help like any shift leader be as good as the best. And so one of the angles was okay, so what do the best do really well. And so framing is like this is what excellence in our restaurants look like. I think was really resonated and brought it to life for folks who don't get into our kitchens very often. And then the stories of what we saw, like, oh, you know, in act almost, we always talk about, like, oh, then a busload of kids show up and like, what do you do? It's crazy. That literally happened in Romania. While we were there doing observations, a busloaded kid showed up and ordered like 70 Happy Meals. And so it's like trying to get those through and describing that and having pictures of it, I think really brought it to life.

Emily Wurgler [00:20:56]:
We showed the difference like a picture from the same spot in the kitchen during, like off peak. So in its slow and there's like one person and then on peak and there's like 12 people in the same, like, you know, part of the kitchen. And so I think that stuff really helped to just like, bring the findings to life and help everyone just like, feel like they were a part of it.

Carol Guest [00:21:16]:
I've definitely been that kid on the bus, the sports team unloading, and just think about what happened behind the scenes. The second question related to the trip that you took. You talked a lot about going to multiple countries. And I'm curious if there are, you know, different patterns you noticed or different insights that you pulled from going to different countries.

Emily Wurgler [00:21:34]:
Yeah. So one of the reasons that it was really important to go to different countries was not just for the culture, but there's different corporate structures for McDonald's. So sometimes you have like a corporately owned market where there's like a corporate office and it runs it. But then in some countries, like Romania, they have like a master franchise agreement. So it's like a person or a company that like, runs the whole market and they're not corporately owned. So like, the relationship to corporate is different. It's run differently, different challenges. So that's one reason it was really important.

Emily Wurgler [00:22:04]:
I didn't see like, that side of things as much in the kitchen as I expected. Like, it looked and felt just like a normal, like, corporately owned McDonald's. The things that were really interesting that I just didn't expect was in Romania. So the countries we went to went to the U.S. portugal, Spain and Romania. And in Portugal and Spain, there was like a real openness with the challenges that they have and like, kind of what makes their job hard and difficult. And in Romania, we were in each restaurant for two days, and on the first day, they were very guarded and did not want to talk about what was difficult. Like, no, everything's great.

Emily Wurgler [00:22:42]:
It's perfect. And in talking with the translators we had who were Romanian, they were saying, like, this is a communism thing. Like you don't, especially with like Americans here, Global McDonald's, Americans here, they don't want to be forthcoming about some of the challenges. And that's just like a cultural thing that's left over from communism. And so I was like, I just didn't expect that nuance to happen. Of like when we were talking with the folks who were coordinating our visits, we were like, you know, we really, it's really important that we get an unvarnished, like real sense of the restaurants. Please don't, you know, only bring in your best people. Please don't overstaff, like, please don't roll out the red carpet for us.

Emily Wurgler [00:23:21]:
And you know, of course they want to put their best foot forward so they maybe stepped up a little too much, but that was fine. But just like from individual crew just wanting to, they just didn't seem quite as willing at first to show us the challenges of their job. And so that was something that I just, you know, we'll consider for next time and how we can kind of break down that barrier a little bit sooner.

Erin May [00:23:43]:
Awkward interruption. This episode of awkward silences, like every episode of Awkward Silences is brought to you by user interviews.

Carol Guest [00:23:50]:
We know that finding participants for research is hard. User interviews is the fastest way to recruit targeted, high quality participants for any kind of research. We're not a testing platform. Instead we're fully focused on making sure you can get just in time insights for your product development, business strategy, marketing and more.

Erin May [00:24:08]:
Go to userinterviews.com awkward to get your first three participants free. You talked about all these insights you've gotten from your international and remote and various methods you've used. One of the things you mentioned up top was how interested you were in bringing research to action, to design, to actually shipping something of value. And I'm curious if you have any stories or memories. And I know you've only been there for about a year and a half, but where you've seen that come to life and is that rewarding?

Emily Wurgler [00:24:38]:
Yeah, I mean I definitely think it is. So even just the project, I was just talking about this new product for shift leadership. We've started like concepting our solution and making decisions about, okay, where do we focus first? Where can we bring value today versus something that we pushed to a little bit later. We've done like, you know, paper prototyping and had shift leaders come in and kind of react to the different ideas that we had. And even that as a researcher I probably would have been involved in that. But Knowing that I'll have the ability to see it through and like, you know, helping make those business and product decisions as well, I think is really exciting. So that's one example. The other one that we're working on, like, as I mentioned, a lot of our products in my space is like, old legacy stuff.

Emily Wurgler [00:25:20]:
And so one of the biggest, most complex problems that we have right now is Europe is implementing a law in 2026 to require restaurants to allow customers to bring their own packaging and get their McDonald's in their own packaging. So, like, you can bring a Tupperware and get your Big Mac and a Tupperware. So that's like one of the first laws to hit. And then later requiring reusable packaging. So like plastic packaging for even for takeout. So figuring out how to like the research that was required to figure out, okay, how will this work? Like, operations had their piece of it. Like, operationally, how do we get a milkshake from the normal thing we make it in into whatever cup they bring? That was like, they had to work on their procedures. But then for us figuring out, okay, how do we make sure that like, in our backend systems, we efficiently, like, allow the markets to tell us which packaging is available, which channels or fulfillment methods.

Emily Wurgler [00:26:18]:
We allow different types of packaging. How do we make sure that they can, like, every different country has different rules about how it will get taxed or have a discount or deposit associated with it. It's like really complex things that need to happen on the back end. And then for the customer, it's like, okay, how do we, like I was working with the customer facing products as well on this. Like, how do we. What's the most efficient way to allow them to choose a different packaging for literally every single item in their order? Cause that's one of the pieces of it. Like, you just have to allow them to pick. And so it's just like reducing that to the most simple flow has been so difficult.

Emily Wurgler [00:26:53]:
So being able to see that through of just like the research, like understanding how they do things today, understanding the nuances of the law, quite frankly, was hard. And then like, how we design it not just for our product, but all the other products that connect to this product, because this is one that like spans all of our products all the way to like, working with the customer side and like app and kiosk of how that will come to life for the customer has been really exciting and something that why I love being like a design leader overall, not just piecing out when the research is done.

Erin May [00:27:24]:
Such an interesting design challenge, too, that you just mentioned when you think about it so hard. Right. I mean, just the consistency that is, like, the hallmark of McDonald's. Right. And the variation in international laws. And you take the packaging out of it. Such a. That's a.

Erin May [00:27:39]:
That's a fun one.

Emily Wurgler [00:27:40]:
Yep.

Carol Guest [00:27:40]:
Is there anything that. It does sound like a very challenging design problem. Is there anything that has helped unblock you, like, any practices or methods or ways of thinking about the problem that really helped unlock something?

Emily Wurgler [00:27:52]:
I mean, honestly, we like being really, really close with operations because the operations, like, it hits them even harder because, like, in the kitchen, how, like, this is so disruptive to how the kitchens run. And so they've been really leading the charge on, like, working with legal to push back and, like, get clarity on some of the laws so that they can make sure they comply, but also don't, like, overly comply so that we lose money, basically. So working with them has been really great. And just, like, always vetting of, like, okay, here's the design choice we are planning to make. Does this fit with what you did? Here's what we're thinking of. This particular flow from your perspective. Is this complying with the law? Is this something we should go back to legal and ask them about? And being really tight with operations, I think, has really helped make sure that we're looking at the whole picture. So that's been a good learning.

Emily Wurgler [00:28:46]:
And then what was your original question?

Carol Guest [00:28:48]:
I forget just if there was any ways of thinking about the problem that helped. Oh, yeah.

Emily Wurgler [00:28:53]:
I think that working with operations is definitely the big one. And then collaboratively design from the beginning, I was like, all right, this spans five products, but we are working together from day one. We're gonna, like, hit milestones together. So it's like, we're starting with flows. Everyone does their flows, and we, like, sign off on them together until. And then we move to the next stage. And, like, that has been very good to just make sure that, like, everyone is on the same page about our design strategy for this, where we're headed. And, like, I think it set a model for our product team of, like, how we can work together and should collaborate on something that is so massively, like, cross product.

Emily Wurgler [00:29:30]:
I think that was a big win for us and, like, helped us be successful. Like, we're not done. Like, we haven't even started building any of this. But, like, from the design perspective, we have, like, a really good foundation.

Erin May [00:29:42]:
Fantastic.

Carol Guest [00:29:42]:
I love these stories. Fascinating, challenging problems, and so interesting. The relationship between, you know, a Physical work environment and laws and then the digital technology that you're working on.

Emily Wurgler [00:29:53]:
Yeah.

Carol Guest [00:29:54]:
You know, I have to ask, any other examples or challenges that you've been working on since your time there?

Emily Wurgler [00:30:00]:
I mean, I can tell you about our point of sale system, which is one of the products that I'm on. So we have like a proprietary point of sale. We don't use toast or clover. It's like the order taking portions like what you, they're inputting the order on the drive thru as well as all the monitors in the kitchen. We call all of that like part of our point of sale. And so it's old and looks like it's old and it's very difficult to create new features using the existing design patterns. And so we're always in this challenge, like, especially with the reusables because we have to allow for a customer to change their packaging and that breaks the way that we had currently the flow of inputting an order. So just like the balance there of like, okay, we have crew who know this.

Emily Wurgler [00:30:46]:
These workflows so well that they are so fast. How can we make sure that we are as best we can, like, adhering to existing patterns, not introducing new ones, but still kind of adding new innovations and like new business requirements to this system. So that's been very hard and we are in the early stages of like, okay, can we at least from the design for like experience perspective, can we start from scratch? Do we have the buying to start from scratch? So we're in that process of like kind of trying to modernize this experience fully because we're hitting up against the boundaries of like, we can't continue like to follow these patterns and workflows because it's just, we're creating a mess. So it's like, that's a tough challenge. But it is like when you think about, okay, let's overhaul this experience, great, we'll push it out. It'll be great. We have millions of crew across the world where we have to develop training curriculum and like retrain them. And like our franchisees have to spend money for that kind of retraining and change management.

Emily Wurgler [00:31:46]:
So it's like interesting business problems as well. It's not just as simple as, oh, redesigning. You'll push it out and users will learn. It's like, no, this is extremely disruptive to our restaurants. Like, it must be worth it. And so like making the business case that a design change only that will require so much change management is worth. It has been a challenge, like gather the metrics and make the case for them.

Erin May [00:32:08]:
So interesting. I'm just thinking about when if you were to do a consumer facing app, usability change and people hate change and so you expect no one's going to like it, but you do it anyway. And I do wonder the incentive to not make it painful is so clear in the example you're sharing of we're going to lose all this time they have these workflows mastered. The franchisees are going to have to pay for this. Just would be interesting if folks thought of it that way when launching consumer app. What is the cost of this?

Emily Wurgler [00:32:40]:
Yeah. And it is like we're trying to frame it in terms remind our stakeholders. Remember, most of our crew are super young and new. The turnover at McDonald's across the world is so high that they're young and they're new. Can you imagine you've grown up on an iPhone and then you jump into this thing that was built in 2000. And so we're in the process of like doing that baselining and usability benchmarking to try to illustrate the gains that we can have in terms of like reduced training time and time to productivity if we overhaul.

Erin May [00:33:12]:
Yeah, yeah. Nice.

Carol Guest [00:33:13]:
Got it. So there's an element of it might be a change for the PoS, but it actually might be more consistent for someone who's used to using an iPhone.

Emily Wurgler [00:33:21]:
Absolutely.

Carol Guest [00:33:22]:
Yeah. Fascinating. Wow. I want to hear these examples all day. It's so fun to get behind the counter and experience that we've all had. You know, we've all seen the other side of it, but knowing what's going on on behind the scenes, I want.

Erin May [00:33:33]:
To get behind the drive thru. Any drive thru stories.

Emily Wurgler [00:33:35]:
Drive through. I mean, yeah. What's interesting about drive thru that was like interesting to me is they measure time in like literally seconds. So it's like if you add a second, if anything, any change you make to operations or to the digital experience adds a single second to the drive thru. That's like millions, possibly billions of dollars. Because it's all about like, especially during peak hours, how many cars can you get through? Because if you can't get them through, they'll go somewhere else. And so it is like really interesting how just like what an art it is to see someone like take orders. Sometimes they're taking orders and doing cash or they're taking orders while they're making frappes and it is insane.

Erin May [00:34:19]:
Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. Once you've parked your car and entered the restaurant, you're sort of Committed. But if you're driving by, you're like, I'm not getting in that line. It's very, very interesting. All right, well, yeah, good.

Carol Guest [00:34:29]:
Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I would've thought speed would be important in both cases, but it's interesting to see that drive thru. It's really more emphasized.

Erin May [00:34:35]:
Yeah, I was gonna ask. So we've talked about your journey from sort of research to design leadership. You've worked at some scrappier, smaller kind of digitally focused startups, I guess. What have been the big changes in both moving to a larger corporation to. With this very in person component, this very physical component. What have been the biggest changes I.

Emily Wurgler [00:34:56]:
Think at McDonald's, like, it's a big bureaucratic company in a lot of ways where there's a lot of processes for things. So it's like that, like having the patience to think in terms of years can be tough. Like I'm going to fight the good fight now for a change I won't see for two or three years. Like that can be challenging. Like the overhaul I was describing and like the persistence to see it through because it's easy to just kind of get complacent and be like, oh, I'm just gonna do what I'm told and not make waves. But like, you have to have a lot of stamina to see these larger changes come to fruition. So that's been one change is just like, oh, like have some patience but also don't just accept that the way things are can never change. So it's like picking your battles, choosing the hills you want to die on, continually pushing for change.

Emily Wurgler [00:35:43]:
I've only been here a year and a half, so like maybe my stamina will disappear and my patience for like, you know, continually pushing and pushing and pushing. But I like the opportunity is so big and this scale is so big that if you can make these big changes, like the impact can be enormous. And that is always really exciting. And I hope I never take that for granted as I've been at McDonald's for longer. That's a big change. The other thing I'd say, like, compared to the company I was last at, because the model is so different where like we have global tools and then individual markets. You don't just release something and you see it out in the world and especially in my world, like on the restaurant side, the markets have to take it and then they have to test it and thoroughly because they have a lot of custom integrations in their market. And so that process just like, the slowness at which your and my designers work can be seen in the real world is tough.

Emily Wurgler [00:36:34]:
And I get it because, like, we cannot take a restaurant down. Like, a change that we make to the pos. If it takes a restaurant down, they make no money. So I totally get it. And we're like always looking for ways to speed up that process, but that can be a little challenging of just like not seeing your work in real life for quite a while.

Erin May [00:36:52]:
Yeah, yeah. Slower speed and massive scale.

Emily Wurgler [00:36:56]:
Yep. And then of course, just like, you know, I've had a couple contracts for different work and getting things through the, like the legal process and the review boards, like, they have like, you know, checkpoints to make sure we're not wasting money and like that. Finding the tricks and the allies to help you push that through and just being like a very pleasant squeaky wheel. And now people come to ask me, like, how'd you get that through so fast? I'm like, you just, you teams message them literally every single day. You're very nice, but that's what you have to do.

Erin May [00:37:22]:
Yep. Love that. Good tip. Awesome. Well, I guess any, like, parting thoughts in terms of advice for others looking to make the transition you've made or words of wisdom you would share along?

Emily Wurgler [00:37:33]:
I mean, I would say that like, I wish more researchers would consider it. Like, you don't have to be a hands on designer to be a good UX leader. And I'll say, like, in a lot of roles, you're not just leading design, you're leading like experience strategy. And I think there's a ton of inherent skill sets in researchers that make for great design leaders. And just like thinking big picture, thinking generative, like, researchers play a huge role in that generative work that shapes the product strategy. And that's what really you need in design leadership. That's a big part of your job. So I would say, like, if you're interested in it, just start trying things out.

Emily Wurgler [00:38:06]:
Like, get your feet wet with understanding the basics of design and try your hand at it. And I don't think you ever need to. Like, I never do any design work besides feedback and critique and stuff. But I do think like, you've got to know your stuff in order to give good feedback. So trying your hand at it and then start talking about it with your boss about what you would need to do to make that transition. I don't think it would have been literally impossible for me to go apply for a design role as a researcher. Like, I just would have been laughed out so, like, I was able to make this transition because I had my boss who believed that I could. So I think that's where the opportunity is, is to make a transition within a company you're already in.

Emily Wurgler [00:38:48]:
So just start having that conversation and learn from your boss or whoever would help in that, like, what you need to do to be able to build up that skill set to make that transition.

Erin May [00:38:56]:
Fantastic. All right, well, I think we should transition to our rapid fire section. Got just a couple closing questions for you. What is your favorite interview question?

Emily Wurgler [00:39:05]:
Oh, boy. So I have literally, I think 30 to 40% of my time in the past year and a half has been devoted to interviewing. So I do have one favorite question, and I got it from a book by Marty Kagan. Empowered. Like that Silicon Valley Product Group guy. The question that I stole from him was, he lists four attributes and he wants, I want candidates to rank what? Like, this is my number one attribute, Number two, number three, number four, and why? So the attributes are strategy, how good you are at kind of like, seeing the big picture, execution, just getting shit done, process, so laying out those processes that help you scale yourself and others, and creativity. And so I ask candidates that and just it's not about the order that they put them in. It's just about, like, kind of why they put them, how self aware they are.

Emily Wurgler [00:39:52]:
So I usually ask that at the very end of the interview. So, like, based on what they say, you can say, like, are they self aware enough to understand their strengths and their weaknesses and just, like, how honest they are? When I'm hiring for my team, I love it when designers put creativity last because it's like, they recognize the importance of these other things.

Erin May [00:40:10]:
Sure.

Emily Wurgler [00:40:11]:
Like, you know, it's like, oh, of course a designer's creative. They have to be. But, like, if they say, you know, nothing matters if I can't get shit out the door, then that's like, I understand that they, like, understand that there is so much more to design than just pushing pixels. So I really like to do that. And then it also helps me, like, I know how I rank mine, how others on my team have been ranked. So it helps me balance out different kind of strengths across my team.

Carol Guest [00:40:36]:
Love that. And I imagine that question is probably designed for product.

Emily Wurgler [00:40:39]:
Yes.

Carol Guest [00:40:39]:
But you find that it works as well in design.

Emily Wurgler [00:40:41]:
Great. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

Carol Guest [00:40:43]:
What are top two, three books or resources that you recommend most to others? And we'd also love to hear the ones that you mentioned right at the top about how to transition in Design.

Emily Wurgler [00:40:53]:
Ooh, books that I recommend. I actually, the Marty Kagan books, I mean, they're about product primarily, but I think they're super great to help a designer, like, understand the product world, what product is trying to achieve. Because you have to. Like, a big part of our job is like helping product managers get their job done. So I love, like, inspired, empowered, and what's that? His latest one, Influence. I don't know, something like that. I think those are great books. Some of the ones that help me transition.

Emily Wurgler [00:41:23]:
I like Lean ux. Not that it's like a bible to me, but just in general, like, it's good practices and, like, helps you remember that we can do things quickly. There's a Google Sprint book. Can't remember the name. Sprint.

Erin May [00:41:37]:
I think it's called Sprint Sprint.

Emily Wurgler [00:41:39]:
I think that's great of just like, sometimes we can just take too long and explore too much and it's just like, remember to refocus. Like, no, like we can move quickly and it just sets out like a really good reusable process for kind of getting started on something. And what else? I also, I read some service design books like, this is service design thinking. This is service design doing. Just because I like, I think it's critical for, you know, it's kind of bridges the gap between research and design in some ways. And it's for the type of job I was stepping into at McDonald's. It was like, I have to know how to do this well. So I found those really helpful and interesting.

Erin May [00:42:17]:
Yeah, fantastic. And I like the point about just emphasizing the speed, whether Lean UX or some of the Marty Kagan books, because as you were saying, sometimes things move slow in a larger company, but it doesn't mean your insights can't move fast. Right. And that the work you're doing along the way isn't moving quickly. So.

Emily Wurgler [00:42:32]:
Yep.

Erin May [00:42:32]:
Okay, great. Where can folks follow you? Are you on LinkedIn? Are you on X? Are you on, I don't know, Blue Sky?

Emily Wurgler [00:42:38]:
Where are you LinkedIn? I'm like, not very social. I post my job openings on LinkedIn and like, other stuff that's relevant, but I'm not an ex person. I have three kids, so it's like, I don't spend a lot of time online unless I'm working, to be honest.

Erin May [00:42:53]:
Yeah, makes sense. All right, well, thank you so much for joining us. This was a lot of fun to peek behind the counter, as Carol said, and have a very happy holiday. And thanks again.

Emily Wurgler [00:43:03]:
Yep. Thank you both so much.

Carol Guest [00:43:05]:
Thank you.

Emily Wurgler [00:43:06]:
All right, bye. Bye.

Erin May [00:43:13]:
Thanks for listening to Awkward Silences brought to you by User Interviews Theme music by Fragile Gang hi there Awkward Silences listener. Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard, we always appreciate a rating or review you on your podcast app of choice.

Carol Guest [00:43:38]:
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